Tracking CSI (bit gory)

[Spaniel man]

I was out walking in the woods around the estate yesterday evening(Tues) and found a dead Roe buck, freshly killed. There were bite marks on the rear legs and the throat looked like i had been chewed as all the hair in that area had been removed. Unfortunately, I didn't have a camera with me at the time, so I went back today to take some pics. This is what I found less than 24 hours later:

This was a good sized animal when I first found it, fairly healthy looking (before it died) with a full belly, and judging by the teeth a few years old.

The rib ends had been crunched

And this was about 50 yards away

I spent some time looking around for tracks and sign nearby and found lots of deer slots, but also some paw prints. This is the clearest one:

The woods are not used at all by the public, so no dogs. There are badger sets about 500 yards away and I have very rarely seen fox sign in this area.
Any thoughts on this?..........

 

[bear knights]

nice! looks like a fox print. badgers toes tend to be more in alignment to each other, more square shaped print overall and normally in mud that clear you'd see the five toes. Your track is more of the diamond shape with claws characteristic of a fox. You planning on keeping any of the skull and antlers??

 

[locum76]

I don't really believe there is many big cats out ther in the UK but that really looks like a big cat paw print! (it seems like the wrong shape for a fox print).

The fact that the it originally had injuries to the throat and legs would suggest a cat kill too. would a fox be capable of taking out a roe deer?

 

[Spaniel man]

Of course I'm keeping the skull

 

[Siberianfury]

very interesting, it dosent look like a fox print, a fox print would be smaller and more narrow, besides you would need some evil jaws to crack open a rib cage, out of native animals i can only see a badger ever doing that. the print matches the apperance of a big cat pugmark with a round shape and retracted claws. i do belive there are big cats roaming around britain in small numbers and by the pictures of your deer it looks typical of a cat kill. it would be pretty cool if you could set up a motion camera trap, or a sand trap to get prints.
realy cool find there.

 

[clcuckow]

I cannot see a single claw print in either photo but it might just be photos which would lead me to cat but I don't smoke so am not so sure of the size.

Larger Domestic Cat that have come along after the main event?

 

[Spaniel man]

I don't really believe there is many big cats out ther in the UK but that really looks like a big cat paw print! (it seems like the wrong shape for a fox print).

The fact that the it originally had injuries to the throat and legs would suggest a cat kill too. would a fox be capable of taking out a roe deer?

This was the reason that I posted it on here. I have seen plenty of fox tracks, but this just didn't 'fit'. What looks like claw marks in the picture are not, I looked very closley at the prints and couldn't see any sign of claws. It also seemed a bit bigger than average.
I'm in these woods almost daily, and rarely see any sign of foxes.

 

[hammock monkey]

my first impression was possible hoax...the prints almost look a bit too well defined, it could be that someone has set this up for you to find....although you'd probably know if it was, as there'd be a reasonable amount of boot tracks about I guess.

There are big cats around, I've seen one myself, and maybe this is one of the few good pieces of evidence...I hope so - well done SM for finding it and taking the time to go back and take pictures, much appreciated!!

If you have an ok camera it'd be fantastic to set up a trap to get some macro shots of more prints, eventually it'd be tempting to hide out and try to film it. They are often creatures of habit, and getting footage would be excellent...although I'm sure the numpty's out there would try and capture or shoot it if it was proven....probably best to keep the location quiet.

one question, from your name I'd guess you have dogs, were they with you and, if so, how did they react?

all the best

 

[Celt_Ginger]

Mmmmm, could be a dinosaur. Everyone knows there are loads of them roaming the countryside

 

[Siberianfury]

this picture of a leopard pugmark looks very similar, the shown print slightly larger than the tracks in your picture which would suggest that the one you have is a young animal or a female. Clcuckow, the rizlas are around 72mm long so that puts the print at around 60mm in diameter which is easily within the size range for a leopard. out of the big cats that may roam the UK countryside the panther (black form of leopard) and the puma seem to be the most talked about and certinatly the two most capable of taking down a roe deer.

http://dabchick.co.za/Pics/(leopard tracks).jpg

this website below also shows leopard prints and measurments.

http://www.freewebs.com/anatolianleopard/photos.htm

This website below shows other evidence and even proven hoaxes of big cats in the UK.

http://www.ukbigcats.co.uk/


hope this helps

 

[bear knights]

are they king size rizlas? if normal size and the track is smaller then seems far too small for a big cat? SM if it didn't seem to 'fit' being a fox then I always believe in trusting your gut instinct and I trust your judgement that the claws I'm seeing aren't. wasn't suggesting the fox took out the deer, more that it died of natural causes and was scavenged on later but does look like a lot of the big fox prints I've seen around.
camera trap sounds like a good idea.

 

[Siberianfury]

actually the prints seem to be the right size for a leopard of a puma, which arent all that big, the rizlas are regular size blue and not kingskins. i think the tracks match those of a large cat very well. and it would be very interesting if it was such an animal?
spaniel man, have you heard of any sightings in your local area?

thanks josh

 

[Bushwhacker]

Could a fox eat that much in 24 hours?

 

[bear knights]

the other reason why I'm not totally sold on the big cat idea, bah humbug and all that , is that often in large cats three of the toes will be in a diagonal line which helps to distinguish left from right, i.e. the two middle toes will be slightly ofset from each other, with one ever so slightly higher than the other. to my aging eye sight, the two middle toes on this track appear to be in line with each other with the the outer toes lower and also in line. Bring on the motion cameras!!
What is good about all this though is that in recent weeks i've never seen the tracking thread so busy and good to know there are others out there as nosy as me about what is going on when our backs are turned. Special thanks to Red for starting the influx of i.d. pictures and good luck Spaniel man with working out this mystery. Lets hope you don't get as good a close up if it is a cat as the weasel picture on another tracking thread!

 

[Hawkeye The Noo]

Spaniel man these are dog tracks with the rizla in them.

First of all look at the interdigital pad:

If you look at the dog and cat track pics from clcuckow first.
The front of the cat track has three extentions at the rear and two at the front whereas the dog has what you would call a triangular interdigital pad with one extention at the front and two at the rear.

The bottom photo with the clear rizla pack shows the triangular interdigital pad.

Secondly in the bottom pic the claw marks are clear. If you look between the two foremost digital pads in the bottom Rizla pic on the raised negative pressure of mud you will see a straw like piece of derbri. At the top of this light straw piece of derbri you can see the claw marks for the front two digits. if you can not see the digits look for the negative pressure ridgethat has been created by them and this will draw your eyes to the claw marks them selves. If I was good on the pc I would add your pics again with an outline of the claw marks for you to see but hopefully the pointers i have given will draw your eyes towards them.

Cheers

Jamie

 

[Spaniel man]

Just got back in from a revisit, more pics to follow once I've uploaded them.......

 

[Spaniel man]

Okay... Just got back from revisiting the 'crime scene'.
This is what is left:

It has moved 50m. and most of the bones have been chewed. I suspect this was badgers overnight as there is a fair amount of rooting and digging in the area close by.
I had another think about the cause of death, and looking at the teeth of this animal it was a fair old age, maybe natural causes? Who knows...

Having a good look around, I found a few more prints:

Again, maybe claws/maybe not. I managed to follow these on and off for a hundred yards or so until I came across a perfect 'track trap', where these leapt out at me!

Along with a few partial boot prints. It seems that there had been someone walking a dog in the area (unusual, as it is remote, and private).
Now, I like the idea of a big cat in the area, but I have to say after looking at the whole picture over a few days, I suspect that the deer died of natural causes, and has been chewed on by a variety of different animals, including badger, maybe fox, and perhaps one man and his dog. (Not mine, as I never take them to this area).
Just shows how closely you have to look at everything!!

Oh, and I think I've ruled out dinosaur, but thanks for the useful comment.

 

[locum76]

good thread though spanielman. I've learned a bit from it. That was some pretty high end sleuthing from hawkeye too.

 

[Spaniel man]

Yes, I agree. Well spotted Jamie, It's so easy to get blinded by the claws/no claws thing that I missed the obvious!

 

[hammock monkey]

doh, well done Jamie - i got all over excited then...schoolboy error and saw what i wanted to see!

great thread though, its so good to see the tracking thread so lively