Tips on Dog Training.

[Niels]

Niels, you don't sound rude at all - your opinions have a right to be heard same as all othersand that's as it should be. ...........I've made a living training driving horses for more than half a century, and have always had dogs with me as both companions and as tools to use in the training and rehabilitation of traumatised and frightened horses - they have had to be absolutely bombproof, steady as a rock in all situations and with all other animals, sometimes in very stressfull and tense situations and often in the face of potential danger to themselves, the horses and me. They've all had to be 100% reliable otherwise my business would have failed long ago' and I've managed them all without ever using threats, coercion or bribery of any sort. If you create the right bond with a dog based on trust and fairness, the ultimate sanction for the dog quickly becomes your displeasure; it will be the thing he or she will fear most and is the most valuable tool to use in training them. The trick is to teach themearly that NO!!! is the one overriding command that they must never ever ignore, this done very gently and ingrained in the dogs mind from the outset............this achieves two things - firstly it's the way to stop the dog in it's tracks and thus they learn to stop and think for themselves to some extent, so learning how to learn, if you see what I mean; secondly it acts as the signal to the dog that he/she is about to break the big rule and cause your displeasure..............

This is a huge subject, too involved for a forum such as this, but I can only tell you that it's always worked for me and for the people in my business; I have never had a serious breakdown in discipline from any of the many dogs I've worked over the years, and I can and do leave my current Springer bitch Molly in situations of temptation with food accessable, wandering possible and anything you can think of' and she will never let me down - but she's always happy, very independant and a very free spirit, just knows exactly where the boundaries are and will never transcend them. All of this has been achieved without any shock aversion stuff, no treats or clicker bribery and conditioning, without fractious words or friction of any sort - just correct bonding and trust..................Really, if you get the first few weeks right, they train 'emselves!
All the best, mac

I don't see how you can train a dog without a reward. No dog will ever do anything for nothing. Neither will you, you wouldn't work if you never got paid right? That's not bribery, that's just the way stuff works. This doesn't have to mean food, as you say a vocal reward is possible too. I like your ideas on the 'no command' though. Ok ok I'll stop ranting

 

[santaman2000]

But you can correct a dog without him knowing it comes from you! Leave a plastic cup of water barely standing on the edge of the table. If he tries to snif it, he'll get the spook of his life and know he's not supposed to sniff anything on the table. But you're right, let's just let Dave decide what methods he likes best. And you have a wolfdog? That's cool

I HAD a wolfdog. She was fantastic but finally at the age of 17 (her, not me) I had to have her put down as she could no longer stand or walk.

 

[bearbait]

I can also vouch for the "NO" command. Once the dog knows it you don't even have to shout it - just a firm tone. My dog comes over for a cuddle after receiving a NO, I feel by way of apologising for breaking my "law" (anthropomorphising there! It's actually just its submission to the alpha dog - me). I also agree with not hitting a dog: you can't teach a good recall if sometimes it gets a slap and other times a treat or a cuddle or tug toy when it comes back to you. It probably doesn't associate the slap from you with something it did 10/20/30 seconds ago. I think the most severe punishment I've ever given any of my dogs is once held one of them down on the ground for maybe 10 seconds while I shouted at it for the transgression. This is no more punishment than the alpha male in a pack would administer to an uppity youngster. Dogs do seem to sense the tone in your voice between shouting for excitement or recall and shouting at them for a transgression. (Maybe they understand some of those very short words that are occasionally used in anger?)

One other way of proving and reinforcing your dominance is to take the dog's food or bone from it with a "Leave It". If it growls or snaps shout the NO. Once you have the food, praise the dog and give it back. I do this just very occasionally to remind the dogs once they've learnt. You can even make it a game with the bone or a chew by taking it from the dog, praise the dog, then tap it on the floor a few times and encourage the dog to take it (use "Take It") and then have a bit of a tug game. Repeat a few times. The dog soon gets to realise that you are the sole provider of food and all food belongs to you. I sometimes treat the dogs by making them sit first; I place the treat on the ground in front of them with a "Leave It". Then wait a few seconds before releasing them with a "Take It" and praise. I can even get one of the dogs to walk round the treat in front of her to come to me for a sit before releasing her to go back to the treat. I think when a dog wants to please you it will do almost anything to stay in the good books.

Try and discourage the dog from jumping up on people from an early age. Not everyone likes dogs and some people are scared of them. And even I don't like someone else's muddy mutt jumping up on me, especially when I'm in tidy togs.

 

[santaman2000]

I can also vouch for the "NO" command. Once the dog knows it you don't even have to shout it - just a firm tone. My dog comes over for a cuddle after receiving a NO, I feel by way of apologising for breaking my "law" (anthropomorphising there! It's actually just its submission to the alpha dog - me). I also agree with not hitting a dog: you can't teach a good recall if sometimes it gets a slap and other times a treat or a cuddle or tug toy when it comes back to you. It probably doesn't associate the slap from you with something it did 10/20/30 seconds ago. I think the most severe punishment I've ever given any of my dogs is once held one of them down on the ground for maybe 10 seconds while I shouted at it for the transgression. This is no more punishment than the alpha male in a pack would administer to an uppity youngster. Dogs do seem to sense the tone in your voice between shouting for excitement or recall and shouting at them for a transgression. (Maybe they understand some of those very short words that are occasionally used in anger?).....

I'll agree with part of this.
-For example NEVER! punish your dog in ANY way for coming back to you. All you're teaching him is not to come.
-And NEVER! punish a dog for anything that isn't immediate. You're absolutely right that it won't associate the punishment with something that happened 20 minutes ago.
-Yep. They definitely know when you're yelling in anger. It's the same as an alpha dog growling at them.

However. An alpha dog WON"T hold them down as punishment. It'll bite the $h#t out of them. The same as a gentle slap from the human.

 

[Niels]

Just to illustrate what you can do with a clicker:

[video=youtube;iVLl8SXK0FE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVLl8SXK0FE&feature=yo utu.be[/video]

The first one is 'hands up or I'll shoot, Bang!'' and the second one 'Would you like a cookie?'
These are ofcourse pretty useless tricks but you can teach him to get a news paper or close the door just as easily

 

[bearbait]

However. An alpha dog WON"T hold them down as punishment. It'll bite the $h#t out of them. The same as a gentle slap from the human.

I'm sure you're right Santaman2000 that this happens much of the time. However, I have observed my dogs, when they're having a scrap over something or other, eventually end up with the dominant one holding the other down - who is on his back or side - until some signal passes from the "loser" that it's end of conflict and he's released.

I did omit to mention that the dog was on its back when I held it unable to move and, of course, being belly up is a very submissive posture for a dog, the throat and soft underbelly being exposed.

It could well be that there are different rules of engagement when there's a scrap within a pack as against two dogs that are strangers scrapping.

 

[santaman2000]

I'm sure you're right Santaman2000 that this happens much of the time. However, I have observed my dogs, when they're having a scrap over something or other, eventually end up with the dominant one holding the other down - who is on his back or side - until some signal passes from the "loser" that it's end of conflict and he's released.

I did omit to mention that the dog was on its back when I held it unable to move and, of course, being belly up is a very submissive posture for a dog, the throat and soft underbelly being exposed.......

Exactly. And this is a good place to add that whatever you do to discipline your dog, don't overdo it. One of the ways they "signal submission" is to urinate; especially when in that possition on their back. Not good for the house and not neccessary to scare the dog that much. All you really want from discipline is for him to remember who's in charge.

TBH most dogs don't need discipline as much as they just need to understand what you want (at least the breeds we're most likely to have for pets)

 

[MartinK9]

Back when I was working for Liz, there was an old saying:

"The only thing two dog trainers could agree on, was what the third one was doing wrong."

Have a great time with your newest addition to your Family.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

 

[Dave]

Some great suggestions here. Plenty for me to think on. Thanks. Much appreciated.

 

[Earthgirl]

I wish you lots of luck... I'm sure you will be fab...

My sister in law got an 8wk old chocolate lab bitch just after christmas, it's currently chewing anything it can get a hold of and she is definitely one for her food, 'poppet' hoovers up anything that drops on the floor, but she is so adorable...

We don't currently have a dog we had to have him put to sleep 2yrs ago the day after my birthday, he made it to 11.

This is him... I called him 'Chewy' after Chewbacca from 'Star Wars' because he sounded and looked just like him

This picture was taken while I was single at the time and Chewy was 8. I'd seen an advert in a magazine. "Orkney shore cottage £20 a night" and thought even I can afford that... so off I went, just me, the dog, blue transit van (I was a gardener at the time and Oohhh, I loved that van)and I drove from Wales to the Orkneys for a fortnights holiday in Sept.

By the time I arrived at the cottage it was 11:30pm at night, pitch black and I kid you not... the rain was horizontal... But I had one of the best holidays I've ever had, the cottage came with a log burner, all mod cons and seals that swam past the back door every morning...

My friends even sent me a postcard from home addressed

Blond Girl, Blue transit van, Large German Shepherd, Cottage by the sea, Orphir, Orkney... and it got to me... lol... It said "We hope you're having a nice time and thought we'd test out the Orkney postal service".......

When I rescued 'Chewy' he was advertised as "14mth old uncontrollable German Shepherd" My first experiences with him was more like something out of "Marley and Me"

There was the time he 'Herded" the surfers on the beach... well he was curious and ran off to have a look at them, he circled them once or twice and they obediently got themselves into a circle with their surfboards facing outwards, (I wish I had a camera) he took a couple of sniffs and came running back to me.

Or there was the time only a couple of days after I'd got him I left him in the footwell of the passengers seat while I popped into my sister in laws for less than 5 mins (at the time I didn't realise he'd had no socialisation with any other animals) and someone had walked past the car with a dog and he'd smacked the windscreen with his head right where I sit and shattered it into a spiders web and promptly refused to look at me when I got back into the car like nothing had happened!!!

The funniest was the time I was stuck on a small little lane (by then I'd graduated to a small 'lime green' van that had a wire mesh behind the drivers seat so he was safely tucked up in the back. and the 'Whole Hunt' were coming towards me... Ooohhh great I thought Horses and Hounds... Chewys favourite... So I duly pulled in and waited for them all to pass. Imagine if you will the scene from "Only Fools and Horses" where they celebrate the fact they are millionaires in the 'Robin Reliant' and all you can see is the car rocking from one side to another...

That was me... stuck in a lane with nowhere to go, Chewy going demented, barking his head off, smacking his head on the side of the van while it 'gently' rocked from side to side in time to his pouncing and I sat in the front seat acknowledging everyone who thanked me as they passed sinking as low as I could into the seat while I gently swayed... I swear I lip read from one or two of them "what the F*** has she got in there"

Then someone gave me a copy of Jan Fennell 'Dog Listener' for me at that time it was perfect... within a month he was 80% better behaved than he had been, all down to the fact I was treating him like a dog and not and person... He could then enjoy being a dog and not have to worry about being human.

Enjoy, the dog training that will work for you is the one that most appeals to you, relax and enjoy...

Apologies for my ramblings....

 

[Eagleman]

Having recently trained my own dog I would say that it is good not to get the dog overexcited too much. I would also start training to heal straight away as then you can just take in the countryside and have both hands free. Talk to a local farmer and if possible get the pup in with some orphaned lambs or something for a few minutes. A nice calm dog that listens to you (they have to pay attention to stay at heal) and is not fussed about livestock is perfect. I have had so many great days with the dog on the hill and being 100% confident your companion is great (I grew up with my parents having semi-trained dogs). I also made the decision not to train with food because I find a begging dog a bit annoying. Although others may disagree I stayed away from useless commands like "paw", "speak" and "wave" in favour of the long or distant stay.

 

[Dave]

Great post EG. Handsome hound. He sounds a bit wild. My kinda dog.

 

[Earthgirl]

Thanks, he certainly was a bit of a character...

and unfortunately... lol.. there are more stories... honest they are all true...

Do what feels right for you...

 

[Damascus]

All I can say is you have started with a good breed, I had 4 at one point no trouble , now one springer, he's nuts.
as the saying goes, labs are born half trained, springers die half trained.

patience, is the key.

 

[greensurfingbear]

I've got a lab/collie cross and its been the easiest dog to train that Ive ever had! He hasn't destroyed any valuables, although he did once try to chew through a wall and door frame.....never did figure out why he did it but only did it once!

I tried to use the clicker method but it didn't feel right for me.

As others have said labs are born half trained, i just tried to positively reinforce with treats and praise for the good stuff he did naturally, like picking things up and bring them to you. retrieving balls. laying down, sitting, barking etc

I used to hide from him when we went to far ahead when he was a pup and he'd have to run back to find me. I found that it's taught him to always look around to see where I am when we go out now. He is now 7, and constantly looks to see where I am stopping and looking to make sure he can still see me. I still hide from him if I think he isn't paying attention, its sort of become a game for us.

My one regret is that I didnt really do heel training with him, he'll return to heel and walk with me a for little bit then walk ahead again sniffing around as he goes. Although if he is ahead of me and I say wait he'll stand still and wait until I am next to him.

Consistency is the key, both my wife and I use the same commands and expect the same behavior from him. He is generally a lovable dog that enjoys being with people and loves to interact.

 

[Macaroon]

Just checked in again to this post - EG, that's a great story and you're a good writer; bet you've got loads more of them! I'm very pleased to take from this thread that there are so many of us who are prepared to devote the time, care and love required to form a great life together with the dogs we have; man's (&womens) best friend is one of the oldest cliches of them all, but they become cliches for a very good reason, the rewards that come from a good bond with an animal are priceless and a joy for ever....................atb mac

 

[Dave]

Yeh, Cheers Mac, and everyone else for their input. I'll post a couple of AWWWWWWWWWWW Piccies, when the puppy arrives.

Went to see the Sire the other day. Very handsome hound.

 

[Earthgirl]

Just checked in again to this post - EG, that's a great story and you're a good writer; bet you've got loads more of them! I'm very pleased to take from this thread that there are so many of us who are prepared to devote the time, care and love required to form a great life together with the dogs we have; man's (&womens) best friend is one of the oldest cliches of them all, but they become cliches for a very good reason, the rewards that come from a good bond with an animal are priceless and a joy for ever....................atb mac

Thanks Mac for the (& womens) and I totally agree with you

Dave I'm looking forward to the AAAWWWWWWW pictures please....

As I said before you'll be fab !!!

That's easy because you've already asked for training tips ...

 

[_mark_]

The problem with NO is that it is used so frequently in day to day speech that it can get very confusing for a dog. I use OI! and keep it very simple, I have three commands Oi, 'look at me' and a whistle that means either heel or stay. I don't bother with sit, paw, lie down etc. as dogs do this when they need to anyway. My dogs work so them being stock broken was important and this was achieved by frequent exposure form and early age, they soon get used to other animals and eventually find them of no interest.

Puppies are boisterous and people try to make them settle down into adult dogs to early, they need to play, a lot. There are some instinctual things that really cannot be trained out of dogs, I have a whippet and a lurcher and if it is small fast and fury it is fair game and they will kill it if they catch it. so I have to be very careful with the lead. My training tips came from a wagtail so they are concise and effective.