time for a preppers section?

[scarfell]

I expect y'all would have no problem knowing the time. Unless something has changed since I left almost every village had a church with a mechanical clock pealing the time every quarter hour.

Now I'd like to ask a question or two:

What type of prepping situation/scenario would be realistic there? I've posted loads of time about hurricanes or other natural disasters here but what would be the most likely event in the UK?

You mentioned gas central heating. What's the ration of folks with gas tanks vs gas mains? By the way either one here is extremely reliable even during our natural disasters (apart from wildfires) as the mains are buried.

Invasion by Russia

Nuke attack, imo more likley than out right invasion

Most likley is Cyber warfare, hitting utilities (elec/gas), banks, healthcare, shops, food import and distribution - most people think of "cyber warfare" as stopping users accessing Amazon or Facebook, but the reality is far more serious, and its coming, be sure of that.

Natural disasters? Not really in UK, climate change is a concern, but not something that will happen over night

Civil unrest, or even Civil War, not as likley as cyber war, but more likley than nuclear imo



One last thing we dont think about much, Antibiotic resistence, within the next decade, millions of us ARE going to die from previously treatable infections; there is no doubt in my mind this was cause a catastrophic shift in society; for good or bad who knows, but no change happens without allot of destruction

 

[Toddy]

Ehm, not trying to stir things up Jaeger, but Scotland is well ahead of the game in renewable energies, and regularly exports to the grid….and receives funds when it has too much and the grid can't take it.
I know wikipedia's not always unbiased, but the linkage is simple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Scotland

North sea oil and gas has literally billions of barrels left in it, and technology is constantly improving and smaller fields are now exploitable. We have huge coal reserves too.
The issue is really when does it become financially viable to exploit these natural resources though. It's expensive to produce here, just now, and still cheaper to import.

The future's not all gloom and doom.
Paraffin is more expensive than petrol simply because, relatively speaking, very few people buy paraffin now so few garages carry seperate pumps, etc.,. I have a lot of friends who use petrol stoves not only because they work, but because getting hold of petrol is so simple in comparison. I have a double burner Coleman one. Can't say I like using it, but it does work well and it's easily supplied.

The most that happens in the UK is short power cuts or events such as floodings, landslips, or gales. These cut power, water cut offs, etc., and sometimes make homes uninhabitable. Not a lot a prepper can do when they're six foot deep in flood water though. I suppose you could make like the crannogs and hope your piles can withstand the force of the waters !

Sugar comes in many varieties though BR grew and processed his own I listened to an academic discussing our sugar dependancy though, and she very much put it into perspective for me.
To obtain as much sugar as in a normal McD or similar establishments regular sized soft drink, our stone aged ancestors would have had to chew a length of sugar cane, as thick as a brush shaft, that was eight feet long.
Now that's bushcraft

M

 

[scarfell]

Ehm, not trying to stir things up Jaeger, but Scotland is well ahead of the game in renewable energies, and regularly exports to the grid….and receives funds when it has too much and the grid can't take it.
I know wikipedia's not always unbiased, but the linkage is simple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Scotland

North sea oil and gas has literally billions of barrels left in it, and technology is constantly improving and smaller fields are now exploitable. We have huge coal reserves too.
The issue is really when does it become financially viable to exploit these natural resources though. It's expensive to produce here, just now, and still cheaper to import.

The future's not all gloom and doom.
Paraffin is more expensive than petrol simply because, relatively speaking, very few people buy paraffin now so few garages carry seperate pumps, etc.,. I have a lot of friends who use petrol stoves not only because they work, but because getting hold of petrol is so simple in comparison. I have a double burner Coleman one. Can't say I like using it, but it does work well and it's easily supplied.

The most that happens in the UK is short power cuts or events such as floodings, landslips, or gales. These cut power, water cut offs, etc., and sometimes make homes uninhabitable. Not a lot a prepper can do when they're six foot deep in flood water though. I suppose you could make like the crannogs and hope your piles can withstand the force of the waters !

Sugar comes in many varieties though BR grew and processed his own I listened to an academic discussing our sugar dependancy though, and she very much put it into perspective for me.
To obtain as much sugar as in a normal McD or similar establishments regular sized soft drink, our stone aged ancestors would have had to chew a length of sugar cane, as thick as a brush shaft, that was eight feet long.
Now that's bushcraft

M

The UK switching back to Coal would be like burning down your house in winter coz u've run out of fire wood!

The consequnces of cyber warfare will be far wider ranging anyway, easily and quickly grinding every aspect of our lives to a nalt.

 

[santaman2000]

.....To obtain as much sugar as in a normal McD or similar establishments regular sized soft drink, our stone aged ancestors would have had to chew a length of sugar cane, as thick as a brush shaft, that was eight feet long.
Now that's bushcraft

M

Ummm. That's exactly what we do in the South this time of year. LOL. Getting a sugar cane to chew is a seasonal treat. Yes, the whole stalk (but they're only about 5 to 6 feet long. That reminds me, I've got to go out and get some for the grandkids.

 

[Tengu]

Ive cut down vastly on sugar and so I think a shortage wont bother me much.

 

[santaman2000]

Thanks for the replies. When I asked about gas mains vs tanks though, I wasn't referring to big oil tanks. i was referring to the bottles for gas that I used to see leaning (or fastened) to some cottages when i was stationed over there. They were similar in size and shape to the gas cylinders used for gas welding.

Thanks especially to Mary. It sounds like the most common or likely disasters are and probably will continue to be limited to local or regional ones. I agree about the limited ability to prep for flooding. I would recommend it would probably be a good idea to have important items ready for evacuation in that event though (meds, insurance paperwork, irreplaceable momentos, diapers if applicable, etc.)

 

[Toddy]

The UK switching back to Coal would be like burning down your house in winter coz u've run out of fire wood!

The consequnces of cyber warfare will be far wider ranging anyway, easily and quickly grinding every aspect of our lives to a nalt.

Under my house, less than six feet down there's a seam of coal that would keep us warm for the next fifty years. It's only a foot deep, but it's a huge great sheet of a foot deep.
Lots of pockets of stuff like that around.

Personally I'm for electricity. I know that our technology is improving exponentially and is rapidly becoming less fuel greedy….there's proof of that just in the change of lightbulbs. Renewables used to be only really hydro, now the technology efficiency is definitely on the up there too.

Cyber warfare just forces everyone to up their game and that folks only have computerised data….or one copy of it.
I worked with archivists who were already struggling to keep up with the constant change of technology fifteen years ago. Folk learn to keep options open and copies secure.

Yeah, I know, I'm an optomist

M

 

[scarfell]

Under my house, less than six feet down there's a seam of coal that would keep us warm for the next fifty years. It's only a foot deep, but it's a huge great sheet of a foot deep.
Lots of pockets of stuff like that around.

Personally I'm for electricity. I know that our technology is improving exponentially and is rapidly becoming less fuel greedy….there's proof of that just in the change of lightbulbs. Renewables used to be only really hydro, now the technology efficiency is definitely on the up there too.

Cyber warfare just forces everyone to up their game and that folks only have computerised data….or one copy of it.
I worked with archivists who were already struggling to keep up with the constant change of technology fifteen years ago. Folk learn to keep options open and copies secure.

Yeah, I know, I'm an optomist

M

Everything is computerised, the food you buy was computerised when sown and harvested and stored, and when distributed, then again when it went for sale or was imported

You electricity supply is controlled by computers as is your gas

Your medical records, prescriptions current or future

Every major shop relies on computrs to keep stocks and make sales

Royal mail and parcel deliveries are computerised

Your bank is computerised


These will all be the target of the next war, there is no back up plan or paper-trail redundancy if and when it fails under attack


So far states have only targeted large corporations(yahoo, sony, friendfinders etc etc etc) , those who actually have significant security in place, rather than gov/public services running on mainly out datted software

Those attacks will come on mass, and times for maximum impact, you dont throw stones at the enemy before you attack, after all!

Copies are of no use when the infrastructure itself has failed; i spent some years working in IT security as a specialist on the UK academic network, i can tell you for certain, there is no back up (against the kind of attacks which took out Liberia's net, for eg); currently.

We Brits dont tend to practice prevention, only treatment, same applies to healthcare as it does to the rest of our lives, its a cultural thing, wait for **** to hit the fan, then act. Damned stupid if you ask me.


If you can get to your coal by hand, well then i guess at least you'll starve to death warm lol

 

[Toddy]

Ummm. That's exactly what we do in the South this time of year. LOL. Getting a sugar cane to chew is a seasonal treat. Yes, the whole stalk (but they're only about 5 to 6 feet long. That reminds me, I've got to go out and get some for the grandkids.

I didn't know that they only grew so tall. The lady held up a stick over 2m long, and just the sheer reality of how much work it was to get the sugar that we spoon into stuff was a revelation.

M

 

[Jaeger]

Aye Up All,

Some great points made - shows that at least some are giving it some thought.

No one can tell what will happen - just guess what might - but there is no doubt that our over reliance on electrickery (and therefore indirectly pumps and computer controlled utility systems as several have pointed out) makes us quite vulnerable. Scarfell - add hospitals and the transport systems to your list!

I just don't think that there is enough (large scale) resilience at domestic level anymore, to weather even short term outages especially if one occurred during a heavy winter and over a large part of the country and it became protracted.

Not that long ago as a result of a sub station going down (due to flooding Toddy!) water bowsers were set up at street corners (stolen!) and bottled water was distributed from lorries (greed, fights and the (inadequate) police cover looking-on! I think that it is best to keep well out of that.

I'm an optimist too Toddy - if owt does happen I know that I can look after my own at least until things recover - as I'm sure they would.

I'm now going to research the locations for open cast coal in my area. There were also plenty of railway lines in the area in days gone buy - perhaps another source? Didn't you mention something about knowledge previously?

 

[sunndog]

Thanks for the replies. When I asked about gas mains vs tanks though, I wasn't referring to big oil tanks. i was referring to the bottles for gas that I used to see

its pretty rare for people to use gas cylinders like that on thier houses over here. Maybe the odd isolated house....larger 'bulk' gas tanks are more common (esp in industrial settings) but still far, far outnumbered by people on mains gas

 

[Toddy]

There are some truly excellent old maps that are now becoming easily accessible. These maps were really first produced by the 18th century landowners who were interested in the latest improvements in agriculture, but it really came to the fore with the Victorians, and they were actively scouring the country looking for mineral resources.
They didn't just look for, and record, large industrial scale ones though, they surveyed and mapped everything from mineral springs (and analysed the output, from sulphur to calcium, etc.,) to small pockets of locally useful materials. Many of the surveys were paid for by individual landowners. Anyplace where there was a 'big house', you're likely to find somewhere in the archives maps of the land. It was the kind of thing that educated landowners did back then, to commission a surveyor.
Beautiful maps and incredibly rich in detail.
Then comes the big industrial expansion and the deep maps and the beginnings of the geological understandings that we know now. (EverythingMac will know more of this than me; he's a Geologist, I'm an archaeologist). Into this is tied the water tables as well as the potable water springs. Where I live I know of thirteen now capped wells that provided beautiful sand and sandstone naturally filtered water. This was common knowledge even fifty years ago. Now, you need to look the old maps.

There are loads of folks interested in this kind of thing though.
http://www.groundwateruk.org/UK_thermal_springs.aspx
as an example.

The expansion of the coal mines (and it wasn't just coal, there was a lot of iron ore in Scotland, a lot of tin in Cornwall, alum, flint, gold and silver elsewhere, our islands are a treasure house of mineral resources) brought a whole other dimension to the understanding of the geology and the useable products of the Earth. From stone for buildings, slate for roofs, to mill wheels….the list is amazing (QdanT has a lot of wonderful detail rich threads about trailing on the moorlands looking for particular stones; amazing hone stones (first exploited by the Vikings here) for example.

How does it all tie into bushcraft ? well, it's being aware of the natural resources around you. It's realising that it's not just growing stuff that we need to survive/thrive but we are not just the cooking ape but the making ape, and there's something primal hardwired into our brains and hands that sees potential in things.

Besides, it keeps life interesting

atb,
M

 

[sunndog]

Oh and in case of disater. I live on a farm at the top of a hill. We have a hundred thousand liter water tank, enough diesel to swim in, and hundreds of sheep and cows on hand.....should see us through for a while

 

[Toddy]

Sorted !

M

 

[Jaeger]

Toddy - You've sparked my interest!

Sunndog - great, we're all round to your place then!

 

[scarfell]

There are some truly excellent old maps that are now becoming easily accessible. These maps were really first produced by the 18th century landowners who were interested in the latest improvements in agriculture, but it really came to the fore with the Victorians, and they were actively scouring the country looking for mineral resources.
They didn't just look for, and record, large industrial scale ones though, they surveyed and mapped everything from mineral springs (and analysed the output, from sulphur to calcium, etc.,) to small pockets of locally useful materials. Many of the surveys were paid for by individual landowners. Anyplace where there was a 'big house', you're likely to find somewhere in the archives maps of the land. It was the kind of thing that educated landowners did back then, to commission a surveyor.
Beautiful maps and incredibly rich in detail.
Then comes the big industrial expansion and the deep maps and the beginnings of the geological understandings that we know now. (EverythingMac will know more of this than me; he's a Geologist, I'm an archaeologist). Into this is tied the water tables as well as the potable water springs. Where I live I know of thirteen now capped wells that provided beautiful sand and sandstone naturally filtered water. This was common knowledge even fifty years ago. Now, you need to look the old maps.

There are loads of folks interested in this kind of thing though.
http://www.groundwateruk.org/UK_thermal_springs.aspx
as an example.

The expansion of the coal mines (and it wasn't just coal, there was a lot of iron ore in Scotland, a lot of tin in Cornwall, alum, flint, gold and silver elsewhere, our islands are a treasure house of mineral resources) brought a whole other dimension to the understanding of the geology and the useable products of the Earth. From stone for buildings, slate for roofs, to mill wheels….the list is amazing (QdanT has a lot of wonderful detail rich threads about trailing on the moorlands looking for particular stones; amazing hone stones (first exploited by the Vikings here) for example.

How does it all tie into bushcraft ? well, it's being aware of the natural resources around you. It's realising that it's not just growing stuff that we need to survive/thrive but we are not just the cooking ape but the making ape, and there's something primal hardwired into our brains and hands that sees potential in things.

Besides, it keeps life interesting

atb,
M

Interesting stuff, thanks!

People shouldnt be under any illusion about how such resources could be accessed and used however, one of the biggest issues i've found with the prepper community, probably stemming from the same paranoia that brought it into existence in the first place, is the idea of Isolationism, that individuals can survive on their own.

This is utter insanity imo, humans are social, we all have very different skills, and our success has come from harnessing and combining those skills; no one is goiing to get much use from an iron or mineral deposit by themselves, just mining it is a task that requires a small army, let alone refining it and turning it into something useful

Apart from Ray Mears, i dont think any individual has much hope surviving an apocalypse on their own


Interesting non the less though!

I had no idwa the UK had hot springs

 

[santaman2000]

I didn't know that they only grew so tall. The lady held up a stick over 2m long, and just the sheer reality of how much work it was to get the sugar that we spoon into stuff was a revelation.

M

Yeah, their height is roughly comparable to a cornstalk, but with taller leaves. The part of the stalk that's actually harvested is usually less than 6 feet.

 

[santaman2000]

its pretty rare for people to use gas cylinders like that on thier houses over here. Maybe the odd isolated house....larger 'bulk' gas tanks are more common (esp in industrial settings) but still far, far outnumbered by people on mains gas

Same here where possible (near the mains vs out in the country) Usually (always as far as I've seen, but I'll have to leave the possibility open) a 500 gallon tank here. When I was growing up they were always buried but in the 1980s they started placing them above ground to better see any corrosion problems.

The only time/place I ever saw the cylinders was over there but I confess they were indeed rare even then.

 

[Toddy]

Interesting stuff, thanks!

People shouldnt be under any illusion about how such resources could be accessed and used however, one of the biggest issues i've found with the prepper community, probably stemming from the same paranoia that brought it into existence in the first place, is the idea of Isolationism, that individuals can survive on their own.

This is utter insanity imo, humans are social, we all have very different skills, and our success has come from harnessing and combining those skills; no one is goiing to get much use from an iron or mineral deposit by themselves, just mining it is a task that requires a small army, let alone refining it and turning it into something useful

Apart from Ray Mears, i dont think any individual has much hope surviving an apocalypse on their own


Interesting non the less though!

I had no idea the UK had hot springs

I agree wholeheartedly. Humanity originally survived in extended family groups, then tribal ones. 'Civilization' is situation dependant….it used to mean the proper behaviour of those who lived in the urbs, (urban/suburban) now it implies the trappings of modern life.
One very capable person can make a life, but a capable group can make a very comfortable one indeed

Lots of hot springs around, and not just in renowned spa towns. Masses of wells and springs too. It really is interesting to suss them out even in just your local area.

M

 

[sunndog]

Sunndog - great, we're all round to your place then!

Yeah no probs mate. unlimited lamb and beef wood fired BBQ....right up until the booze and cigarettes you brought run out. Then you're out on yer ear