Tidal Canoeing Advice

[johnnytheboy]

If possible I would like some advice on tidal water canoeing. Something I am not at all familiar with. The Forth estuary has another river run in that has about 2 miles of smaller estuary. Its pretty much untouched by the caneoist as it used to be a right mucky hole full of industrial waste, however I was speaking with the balifs of the upper reaches and they were telling me it pretty much cleaned up so I want to go and give some virgin water a paddle.

Now the thing is what recy work should I do to find out its safe! when is the best time to go, high tide, low tide, tide rising falling etc

The last thing I want to have to find out is there is something like the severn bore coming bombing down the river with me in the middle of it, highly unlikley but my bloody luck!

 

[John Fenna]

Although every stretch of river is different I have done a fair bit of tidal and costal paddling in open canoes and have only once been caught by any kind of bore - on the Conway in N Wales.
I was almost wrecked by the wake of an Irish Ferry though - big wakes are a bit like Tsunamis in the way that they are almost invisible in deep water but gain huge power in shallow and confined waters....

 

[coln18]

you should consider posting this thread on song of the paddle forum as well, not done much tidal paddling myself except loch Ryan and Loch Etive and had no problems what so ever, just had to keep one eye on the ferries as john said, but the forth may well be a different kettle of fish. im sure that on song of the paddle they will have some members that will have paddled the forth already and have local knowledge of the river.

 

[Toddy]

Another recommendation to ask on SotP.
I have old Tidal charts for the Clyde though, surely they're still available for the Forth as well ?
Interesting to have a read over to give you background information.

Best of luck with it

M

 

[birchwood]

I would get yourself a tide table and a chart of the area. This will tell you about shipping lanes ,hazards,drying points.
Reccy the places you want to paddle from the shore at low tide if you can,so you can see any channels and drying points/hazards. Remember that there will be differences between spring and neap tides.
Use the tides to help you , go out on the falling tide and come back on a rising tide if possible.
Cross any ferry wakes at a right angle , ie head on, if you get caught sideways it could roll you.
Go with a mate if possible.
Be visible- wear Hi-vis if in a busy shipping area.Cross shipping lanes at right angles.
As far as I know the Severn and the Seine are the only rivers around here that have a `bore`.
Sorry I can not help with more local knowledge. I would be up for this but to far away.
Have fun exploring.

 

[mrcharly]

The Yorkshire Ouse has a bore (locally called the 'auger'). It's very impressive and a bit scary when you out on a boat and it comes along.

What sort of canoe are you using? A whitewater playboat or slalom kayak is fine for a bit of tidal work. Just don't venture offshore or into any situation where a tidal current can take you out to sea.

Bear in mind that tidal currents can be fast; 5-7knots are not uncommon. Check sailing directions for the local area. These will give an indication of current speeds and directions. Often the areas that are dangerous for yachts are fun to play in for kayaks (as in shallow waters that have swirling currents).

Conversely, deep water channels that are safe for yachts can be just the sort of place where a tired kayaker could find themselves inadvertently heading for open water.

 

[Llwyd]

Typically I put in on a rising 3/4 tide and go with it until it turns then get out at 3/4 or the falling tide. It means no kilometer long portages across mud flats where I live. Our local Fundy Bay has a 50 foot tidal range on average so when you screw it up (and I have) you can end up cliff climbing and pulling a canoe up on a rope.

The main thing is planning. You may need a plan "B" where you get out or you may have to wait for conditions to change before you can get out.
You need an on shore wind most days because if you get caught in a falling tide with an off shore wind you are not going to win that engagement.
I never recommend going out too far either, stay close to shore. You can read the tide better and you can get out in an instant if you need to.

Here is a short video of some coastal canoeing I did a few years ago. It did not go as planned from day one and then even when the conditions were good they changed quickly.
[video=youtube;78rHl9OrZik]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78rHl9OrZik[/video]

Coastal canoeing is about the most dangerous form of canoeing. The reason for this is the fact that people typically will get caught in a changing condition and will instinctual try to fight it. They fight it until they are exhausted and then they make a mistake and with no energy left they die in the water. Because of this natural instinct to get back to where you started you need to train yourself to limit where you go and what you do. In the video, I got caught in a situation where the tide was going the opposite direction I needed to go and the wind shifted. As I knew that it was only a kilometer or so I made the decision to stay close to shore and fight my way back. If I became too exhausted I could have tucked in behind a big rock and recovered or waited for the tide to go down and expose the beach then line the canoe back. Worst case scenario, if I could not get back to shore, I could have run with the tide and wind and got to shore further down the bay. All this would mean is that I may have had to drag the canoe a few miles across farmland to get to the road then walk back to the car a few miles away.

Better than losing my canoe for a free helicopter ride or getting killed

 

[Nomad]

You should be able to get a tidal atlas and tables at the Bosuns Locker chandlery at Port Edgar Marina near South Queensferry. I presume you're referring to the outlet of the Carron (only 'mucky hole' I can think of that empties into the Forth). If I'm right in thinking that the OS map shows MLWS as the boundary of the water, I'd imagine that it will be navigable at nearly all states of tide. (MLWS = Mean Low Water Spring = average low tide when the tidal range is large, but not the maximum low spring tide.) Current due to tidal flow is strongest midway between low and high water. On a tidal river, strongest current will be when tide is flowing with the river, ie, when the tide is falling. Tides run on approximate 12 hour cycles - high water to low water, about 6 hours, and then back to high water. Slack water, about an hour either side of high water and low water, is when the tidal flow is weakest.

From my recollection of the tidal atlas of the Forth, there isn't much in the way of tidal race that far up in the estuary - fastest bits during max tidal flow are around the bridges (near the Beamer rock just west of the road bridge, can hit a few knots). So, I would be tempted to think that the Carron shouldn't present any particular issues with regard to tide, although it's entirely possible that there could be a knot or two at particular times.

That's an approximate 12-hour cycle. You must check tide tables for times before going onto salty water. Note that published tables might not give times for that exact location, but the nearest one (often Leith) is within a few minutes.

If you do get swept into the estuary and downstream, head for the south shore. It's flatter and shallower and easier for beaching (I've sailed in the area a fair bit, and the south shore is something to be avoided in a boat with a proper keel or centreboard). Avoid the north side of the Forth where the shipping lanes are, and where the shore is largely vertical or nearly so. Ships use that part because it's deeper, they can't really get out of it and thus have right of way over other craft (contrary to normal maritime rules).

 

[johnnytheboy]

Nomad, your right on the money, it is the Carron! it would be almost like paddling a 60ft wide canal that has the ability to flood with the tide. There is a few posts on sotp but no one said they have paddled it, or shows remote interest in it! I was thinking of putting in just below the motorway bridges and heading upstream to see how far I can go, then back down to where I started! Whats your thoughts on that route?

It is an actual canoe I have, Novacraft Pal not a kayak or anything fancy!

 

[Nomad]

As I said, it is (was??) the only mucky hole I know of that empties into the Forth (I'm amazed that it is no longer a mucky hole, although maybe it's still a sludge bucket). You may not be far off with the canal analogy - one thing I would say about is that it always seems to be very slow water.

I can't really comment on the route, where to put in, or what it's like to paddle - never been near it apart from driving over it on the motorway. I'm not a canoeist, incidentally (although I am developing an interest in getting a canoe). I think I would probably go for a recce on foot to see what the options are. The map indicates a weir some way upstream, which is probably the limit of the tidal stretch (tidal = black lines defining water's edge). I think my main concern would be finding a place to put in that isn't a mudbank. It might be a case of putting in at the weir and heading downstream to check out the tidal stretch, then turning and heading back. I can't imagine that the downstream section is very picturesque, although there might be some interesting wildlife. Upstream from the weir might be better, but I don't know what the going is like.

 

[Chainsaw]

I've had a poke about on the Carron , it's a bit of pain upstream with all the weirs and general scrapiness. The put in at the bridge near the hills of dunipace/M876 J1 has a weir straight after (easy) and then lot's of scraping. There is then a monster broken weir (super nasty, walk it!) just short of Larbert. Another put in at the railway viaduct but there's a weir at the mill that would need recce'ed. Yet another is at teh car park opposite the bus garage, still really scrapey though and a fair few strainers another weir at the Carron Ironworks (unsurprisingly) to feed the dams. Another put it is at the less used bridge near the ironworks, it's a long slow passage down to the locks from the canal beside the M9. Need to time it to get there around high tide as the mud there is incredible, as you know.

cheers

alan

 

[bearbait]

You might find some info or help for your trip on ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk or the sister site UK Rivers Guidebook from the link at the top of the homepage.

Be safe: the sea is quite impartial...

 

[galavanter]

regards canoeing in the sea do you put solid bouyancy back and front to stop too much water getting in if a capsize occurs

 

[andibs]

check out the sea section on UKRGB. Links to tide tables etc

 

[Chainsaw]

regards canoeing in the sea do you put solid bouyancy back and front to stop too much water getting in if a capsize occurs

getting back into a canoe after a capsize is pretty difficult if you're on your own. I dont think you could do it unless you have practiced it similar conditions. Without blocks or bags in, it's even more difficult. (I have 2 boats, one with buoyancy and one without) With two people and 1 boat it's easier and with 2+ boats it's a bit of a skoosh (assuming you have practiced it)

Bottom line, extra buoyancy helps but training and practice help a heck of a lot more

HTH

Alan

 

[mrcharly]

I like canoes in the UK. You can paddle without throwing drips over yourself.


BUT

They have one major weakness; windage. 'canadian' canoes have a lot of windage and little sideways grip on the water. A crosswind can make it very very difficult to maintain a course. Check weather forecasts and only go out onto open water when there is an onshore wind, as said above.

 

[ged]

My recommendation would be to get yourself on a course. Many local authorities used to do very cheap courses in boat handling in tidal waters at their colleges (or whatever they call them thesedays) although in these times of tight finances I don't know what the availability is like.

The tidal waters around the UK can be unforgiving, and you definitely do not want to set off into them without a decent appreciation of what you could be getting yourself into.

You need to be properly prepared and equipped. I would always take a radio and an anchor, for example, even on an afternoon bimble in a Laser on the Humber. Once when my sailing buddy's life jacket fell apart we borrowed one from the lifeboat station at the Humber Bridge.

Incidentally there are bores on many UK rivers, the Trent for example has one nearly as big as the famous one on the Severn. Unlike many other potential dangers in tidal waters they're normally very predictable so you can plan to avoid them - or to surf them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_bore