The Tatra mountains

[arctic hobo]

Does anyone know anything about this range? It's on the Slovakia/Poland border, looks like a wonderful place. Thick pines on the hills, peaks rising to 2,600m or so means no over the top mountaineering, and the climate looks good too - low rain, snow in the winter but most seems to be gone by May, not sure what the rock is but looks fairly good for climbing. The forests are empty and look like they're just waiting for some bushcraft - in short, looks amazing!
I've only just found out about them, do any of you people know about the area or possibly have been there?

 

[Wayne]

Great Place for Bushcraft. i haven't yet been but they still have bears and wolves. i am planning to go soonand practise some tracking. i have some details to iron out first though. if anyone has any detailed info i would be grateful.

 

[greg2935]

I believe most of that area has national park status, it is somewhere where you can go hiking, but there are certain restrictions depending on the time of the year, also because it is one of the last refuges of the European bear, has not become a popular hiking trail, which is probably a good thing considering what we have done to the rest of Europe.

 

[Simca]

Yes, it's forbidden to do camping, putting up a tent, or as we say "bushcrafting" in the Tatra mountains. There are established campsites, family run pensions and hotels all around. For more information, visit http://www.tatry.sk

 

[Fluxus]

Wild camping is pretty much a no no anywhere in Slovakia and there aren't a great number of campsites. In the hills is a great hut system if you can work out the rules and ettiquete. The Pieniny mountains a few kms east along the border are very beautiful indeed and have great rafting opportunities. Not much farther south is Slovensky Raj (slovak Paradise) national parkwhich has a couple of decent campsites and great gorge walking. The town of Kezmarok has a big folk and traditional crafts festival where we met some welsh bodgers and stick makers! all in all Slovakia is fantastic.
For something a bit wilder - try the Romanian carpathians and for a trip back to the 17th century nip across into the Ukrainan carpathians.
Lots of good background in Clear waters Rising by Nicholas Crane (just read the middle third!)

 

[arctic hobo]

Thanks guys, it did look like it was very much untouched. Shame about the regulations although I guess it wouldn't be untouched if they weren't there.
I meant to post a link with the thread, here it is: http://www.cs.put.poznan.pl/holidays/tatry/

 

[arctic hobo]

Wild camping is pretty much a no no anywhere in Slovakia

As long as I live I'll never understand banning wild camping - as long as people leave the places as they found them, there is no problem (Norway and Sweden are proof that it can be legal with no adverse consequences). Our ancestors lived what we'd call wild camping - forcing people into towns or artificial campsites seems ridiculous. Where has our love of nature gone?

 

[Simca]

I think the problem is that is easyer to banning wild camping, than educating people to keep the nature clean. Sweden and Norway may have more resources and willing for education. The "eastern block" is not at that level yet morally. Maybe our childs or grandchilds will be able to camp, will be responsible to keep the nature as it is.

 

[Moonraker]

As long as I live I'll never understand banning wild camping - as long as people leave the places as they found them, there is no problem (Norway and Sweden are proof that it can be legal with no adverse consequences). Our ancestors lived what we'd call wild camping - forcing people into towns or artificial campsites seems ridiculous. Where has our love of nature gone?

I totally agree about the principal of wild camping and freedom to roam, BUT you have to look at it in the context of the modern world. Away from the Scandinavian countries where there are still relatively large areas of sparsely populated land, the impact of tourism and unauthorised camping are causing real damage to our already, under-pressure landscape. The obvious danger are forest fires which destroy huge areas of fragile habitat each year in Europe, not to mention loss of human life. You also have to consider the impact of ever increasing numbers of people accessing the countryside for R&R who do not have the instinctive knowledge of the countryside of previous generations. I suspect that even in Sweden or Norway there are more issues like this certainly in the more highly populated areas of the South. And even in Scandinavia there are restrictions on fires throughout the summer.

The issue I think is how one differentiates between the sensible, educated and caring bushcrafter or camper, and those that litter, leave gates open, cause fires, through ignorance or shear laziness.

I am not sure what the answer is other than coming to terms with what the countryside is and what role we see for it in the future. Also re-educting people in how to behave and make aware of the dangers and the benefits of considerate access across the countryside. It is only one aspect of the HUGE issue which is the impact of Tourism on our countryside in all countries, especially given the demands and expectations of the tourist industry (which also provides much needed income to rural areas of course).

Where has our love of nature gone?

It is not the love, which still largely remains and fuels the desire to 'escape' from the suffocation of modern life, to the countryside (albeit it in an increasingly romanticised and 'Disneyland' type experience), but how you get millions of people to 'tred lightly'

 

[Wayne]

sadly many of the most beautiful remote areas of the UK that have been trashed. I have often been apalled by the litter and human waste left near mountain bothies in the UK. You can almost forgive those near the road. Afterall we can say those people aren't true outdoor folk. However many have required several hours walk in and still litter and crap. Only other climbers could have left them in that state.

We cannot expect landowners to offer us free access when we the outdoor people leave such devastation in our wake.

Sme areas of Poland are as close to pristine wilderness as we are likely to get eenthough thee areas are still managed. The intrepid bushcrafter could arrange for a local forester to act as a guide. Many of the forests offer guiding services to hunters.

 

[arctic hobo]

You guys make good points - but it's a real shame
Wayne you remind me that when high in the Norwegian mountains, after several hours' glacier travel and three H V Diff faces, I found a one litre canister of motor grease, half empty. I couldn't believe it - why would anyone lug it all the way up here? And why on earth did they simply leave it for us to take down and throw away?

 

[Moonraker]

The option is usually there to approach the landowner and gain permission. That way most things are 'doable' excepting byelaws and national restirctions ( such as fire bans etc). In France for instance, it is legal to wild camp, provided you ask first. The issue is mostly about the legal right to roam without asking permission (whilst following sensible guidelines) as in the allmensraten.

Getting back more on topic there is some info on the BBC web site which says this:

The Tatra National Park

The rules for the National Park on both the Polish and Slovakian side of the border are extremely strict. They have all the normal prohibitions in a national park - no picking the flowers, shooting the animals or playing Eminem at full volume on your stereo - and then some more. Wild camping is a big no-no, and unless you are an 'organised climber' you are not allowed to leave the marked paths.

Becoming an 'organised climber' in Slovakia is not complicated - go to the mountain guides in Stary Smokovec with proof that you are a member of a mountaineering club and they'll explain what you can and cannot do. This Researcher never managed to find out exactly who we had to see in Poland to get certified, but it must be possible. If you manage it, you can then get access to the climber's hut at Morskie Oko, below some of the best cliffs for rock climbing6.

The strict rules are undoubtedly a bit of a pain, but try and look at it their way. The Tatras are one of the most biodiverse ecosystems in Europe. There are still bears in the bushes, wolves in the woods and chamois on the cliffs. All this despite being one of the most popular mountain walking areas in Europe, especially with the Poles but also increasingly with Western Europeans. Would they still have this range of flora and fauna if they let people wander all over the place?

You can read more about the National Park at their site.

Read more here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A1032085]The Tatra Mountains of Poland and Slovakia

I have a friend who used to go their a lot and was a registered guide. She often camped under the stars etc. Being registered to a climbing club allows you more freedom to go off track.

 

[arctic hobo]

Great help, thanks Simon

 

[Emma]

The issue I think is how one differentiates between the sensible, educated and caring bushcrafter or camper, and those that litter, leave gates open, cause fires, through ignorance or shear laziness.

There are a lot of the latter around. There's a beautiful (very very small) wooded area with a stream close to me, and people use it as a tip. There are computer components, TVs, shoes, clothing, and general rubbish covering the place.

Where has our love of nature gone?

When I was a couple of years into secondary school we had to go out onto the playing fields with maybe two sheets of possibly ten or maybe even fifteen plants and trees described with pictures of leaves, and identify as many as we could in the field. In groups of three or four. I went out with my group, who first found a hazel in the hedge. My group thought is was a birch. I insisted it was a hazel, then to prove it I took them to a birch a little further along the hedge. At this point they wanted to know how I knew so much about hedges... I said I thought everyone knew what a hazel was... so I pointed at an oak in the copse at the end of the field and asked them if they knew what it was. None of them did. We went closer to have a really good look at the leaves. And growing acorns. Still nothing.
And I thought that oaks were the single most known tree. Scary that my school is in a small town, with a catchment area consisting of even smaller towns and villages in a rural-y area. And it's these kids growing up in these rural-y areas that don't know an oak, or a hazel, or a birch when they see them.

 

[Moonraker]

There are a lot of the latter around. There's a beautiful (very very small) wooded area with a stream close to me, and people use it as a tip. There are computer components, TVs, shoes, clothing, and general rubbish covering the place.


When I was a couple of years into secondary school we had to go out onto the playing fields with maybe two sheets of possibly ten or maybe even fifteen plants and trees described with pictures of leaves, and identify as many as we could in the field. In groups of three or four. I went out with my group, who first found a hazel in the hedge. My group thought is was a birch. I insisted it was a hazel, then to prove it I took them to a birch a little further along the hedge. At this point they wanted to know how I knew so much about hedges... I said I thought everyone knew what a hazel was... so I pointed at an oak in the copse at the end of the field and asked them if they knew what it was. None of them did. We went closer to have a really good look at the leaves. And growing acorns. Still nothing.
And I thought that oaks were the single most known tree. Scary that my school is in a small town, with a catchment area consisting of even smaller towns and villages in a rural-y area. And it's these kids growing up in these rural-y areas that don't know an oak, or a hazel, or a birch when they see them.

It is sad, actually a crime that kids simply get so little hands on country experience, hence often the total lack of knowledge of such things we took for granted as kids (OK I am 42 so that was in the old days . Truthfully, as is the way of the playing field (yes we actually had a big field to play) most stuff was learnt from your peers who learnt it from brothers or sisters or parents or grandparents. But that dissemination or drip feeding of spoken lore is fading fast and with it appreciation for that which surrounds us. The imperative is to get rid of that old fridge as easily as possible not worry about the stream, now lifeless and sterile.

Being in a very rural part of France there is still a strong link for many to the farm land and in fact our kids are taken off to visit working farms or walking outside just for the sake of it and spend a lot of their waking hours playing with freedom around our village; one of the big reasons for our move here whilst they were still young enough to enjoy such innocent pleasures to be honest. And I am pleased to see that there is at least some education of their natural environment and also local customs and traditions. I am sure there are good examples in Britain also but the pressure of SATS etc from such a silly early age really is way off line if you want time and space for kids to explore, discover and appreciate the natural world around them. Again we are fortunate here because the French take the attitude that early schooling is about play and the child rather than the latest test results. The fact that our kids don't go to school on Wednesdays for example, means that people take the opportunity to get out and enjoy some fresh air and have that space to let their minds run wild, literally

I know that in Scandinavia there is still a strong emphasise at school to introduce kids to their environment and also time to enjoy it, although I am sure there are issues there too. But I can only think that the answer is through passing on passions and woodlore etc to our kids and that can only come through their schooling and importantly from their parents and siblings too. Above all, the chance to simply play and explore the woods and streams and fileds; kind of like, as Viking said some times, we continue to play and open our minds again like we did as kids, through bushcraft

Anyway, sorry to drift off topic again Glad it is of use Chris

 

[Emma]

I think a part of the problem are legal issues. When I first joined primary school, we were allowed to play in the (very wide and mature) hedgerows surrounding the field. We were allowed to eat the blackberries and sloes. We were allowed to be stupid enough to get ourselves stung by stinging nettles and scratched by brambles.
By the time I left primary school, not only were we not allowed in the hedges, but we weren't allowed near them, weren't allowed in the far side of the field, weren't allowed to eat any berries, and weren't allowed near nettles or brambles. Not because there had been any incidents. In fact the only incident that the school could have been sued over happened to me in the playground, not in the field. (And no, we didn't sue.)
In fact, there were some swings, climbing frame and slide put in the field and at one point we were banned from using them... I mean who else was going to use them other than the kids?

 

[Emma]

Actually, while I'm on the subject, when I was in 6th form we were banned from even going on the field during our free time. This was apparently so that the other kids didn't feel jealous of us having spare time. They used the CCTV system they set up round the school to watch the field for stray 6th formers, as a group of us found out when we got a warning for sitting, working, in the field.
And I thought schools were supposed to encourage people to got out and have some nice fresh air.

Right, now I've done the 6th form rant I will shut up.

 

[Daniel_sk]

Ok - a bit late reply, but I just found this thread (and I haven't been here for a year or so).
I live in a small city quite near the High Tatra mountains, you can see a view of our city and the mountains:

The picture has a bit strange perspective - it looks like there are no woods arround, but we have more than you could imagine . Just right the other way the picture was taken, there is a huge territory called Levocske vrchy, which is 30000ha big, there are just few people there because it was an army training area for many years (it was closed down this year). It's a quite difficult terrain, the most of it is covered by pine trees. We were there a month ago, we spent 5 days there, was a great trip, we even slept one night inside empty army buildings that we found.
Maybe it's forbidden to camp here, but I never heard of this . You can camp wherever you want, no one is going to arrest you for this (and no one will find you either, I never saw someone).
It would be a bit difficult to camp directly in the High Tatra mountains though...There are too many official paths and many people arround, you would need to hide somewhere I don't have any personal experiemences with camping in the mountains, so I can't give you a tip where to camp there. But there are a lot of forests and other beautiful mountains arround here where you could go and camp as long as you want. You can find many pictures of the High Tatras here: http://www.tatry.sk ,click Foto (click "Dalej" on the end of the page, you will be forwared to next pictures). If you really want to sleep in such an enviroment, you could go to one of those huts that are open there every day, you can sleep there for a few pounds a night. Like "Teryho chata" which is nearly 2000 meters above sea level, I was there last week.

There are beautiful official paths which you could walk and sleep in one of those huts. Everything is cheap here (for people that come from abroad).
I have a lot of pictures from our "bushcrafting" in the surrounding woods, I think I will post some later.

 

[synoptic]

I went on a trip to Slovakia about 10 years with a bunch of climbers and cavers and I have to say it is one fantatically beautiful place. We stayed in the Stary Smokovec area which was ideal in terms of access to the High Tatras - cheap food and accomodation, good transport links (putting our public transport to shame) and loads of activities.

I actually stayed in the Teryhochata and it was an excellent facilty. Very clean and with a well stocked bar! If you go and stay in one of these huts then don't do what I did which was have too many sherries and collapse on my bunk with my boots still on (in my defence it was my birthday ). The next morning I was physically thown on the floor and frogmarched out by the man-bear that was running the place. Fair enough really, the place stays so pristine as a result of the strict regulations. I wasn't really tuned into the fact that the place still had the ghost of communist authoritarianism roaming about. Unfotunately we did have one or two run ins with corrupt officialdom who demanded on the spot fines for various things we couldn't understand and there was one particularly nasty incident with the local mafiosa which we just managed to extricate ourselves from.

It may be a little more relaxed now but back then authority was sacrosanct and you played by the rules or you were in big trouble. English people in particular seemed to be greeted with circumspection, quite unlike the German tourists who were welcomed with open arms. If you know some German I would try and communicate in that language rather than English. As I say though, it was a long time ago and may have changed now.

The mountains themselves provide good, energetic walking but be warned that winter arrives overnight in these parts. Some of our group went to another mountain hut and awoke to find their return path coated with a deadly layer of verglas... They just about manged it but wished they had taken the winter climbing gear with them!

I missed the excursion to the Slovensky Raj which was a big mistake. Apparently it is fantastic and a bit more 'bushcraft' type country than the mountain areas.

I must dig out the photos...

 

[Daniel_sk]

Communis and things like that ended after 1989 (and our own state was formed in 1993) here, now we are a completely free country. I don't remember any communism, I was born in 1987 so I was too young at that time. We are in European Union now and our laws are identical to other western countries. You can come here without any fear of some communists There are more people from abroad in High Tatras than Slovaks.

The winters are very cold here, I had the opportunity to sleep at -20°C here and that was very cold. The temperatures can get below -29°C and even lower in the High Tatras, I wouldn't recommend sleeping outside in mountains like that, if you don't have enough experiemences. And the summers are very hot, so big differences in temperatures.

Slovensky raj is a beautiful place, unfortunately there are many "gypsies", people who live in un-authorized own built shelters, they are destroying the nature and they sometimes attack tourists and steal. That might sound racialistic, but that's the truth, so don't get close to them. They get a lot of social help and money from our state, even new buildings, but they just can't addapt to a modern way of life. It's sometimes getting a problem here...