The scary, the strange, the paranormal...

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zarkwon

Nomad
Mar 23, 2010
492
1
West Riding, Yorkshire
They are the same definition.

The point is that a scientific theory is an established scientific fact backed up by evidence. Not just a theory in the everyday sense. The "Germ Theory of Disease" or "Theory of Evolution". Each is as much a fact as the fact that this table I am sitting at is a table. If you allow that there is such a thing as a fact then these are all as sound as any you could mention being as they are backed up by mountains of interdisciplinary, mutually supporting evidence. They may be tweaked here and there in the future but it is extremely unlikely that they will be overturned.
 
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zarkwon

Nomad
Mar 23, 2010
492
1
West Riding, Yorkshire
Can't wait to read Zarkwon backpeddle once he sees his first ghost. :pokenest:

Lol. If I do see one I will assume that there is some glitch in my brain's software or the Turmat meal I just ate was beyond it's use by date as these are much more likely to be the case than the idea that everything we understand about Physics, Chemistry and Biology is wrong.
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
1
Hampshire
I'm no doctor, but its not just sunlight you need - Rickets appparently can be caused by Vitamin D deficiency, but also the lack of sufficient calcium or phosphorus. And without sufficient Calcium in the diet, vitamin D from sunlight can't help the body absorb calcium in the food. Apparently rickets is widespread in famine areas where malnutrition is common, regardless of sunlight. And from a simplistic point of view, without protein, you can't build the body; carbs etc provide the muscles with sugars for energy, but don't fuel new growth or repair of damaged tissue - only protein can do that.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
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Florida
I don't think the absence of organization has anything to do with the definition of "fundamentalist" has it? Could you elaborate please?

That's what Fundamentalists believe; the bible as the ultimate (fundamental) authority with no organization or particular church/denomination. There are several denominations which might be called fundamentalists but the individual churches owe no particular allegiance to the denomination and likewise the individual members owe no particular allegiance to the individual church (what you would call a parish) It's simply a very loose confederation of similar believers. Each person interprets according to their own understanding.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
I'm no doctor, but its not just sunlight you need - Rickets appparently can be caused by Vitamin D deficiency, but also the lack of sufficient calcium or phosphorus. And without sufficient Calcium in the diet, vitamin D from sunlight can't help the body absorb calcium in the food. Apparently rickets is widespread in famine areas where malnutrition is common, regardless of sunlight. And from a simplistic point of view, without protein, you can't build the body; carbs etc provide the muscles with sugars for energy, but don't fuel new growth or repair of damaged tissue - only protein can do that.

I'm no doctor either. I just remember an increase in Rickets being an issue of concern a couple of years ago. The apparent cause then was a decrease in sunlight exposure due to cancer concerns and decrease in milk consumption due to cholesterol concerns (our commercial milk has added vitamin D). As I said I'm no doctor either but your logic seems sound to me; carbs provide fuel, protein builds/repairs muscle and calcium builds/repairs bone.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
The point is that a scientific theory is an established scientific fact backed up by evidence. Not just a theory in the everyday sense. The "Germ Theory of Disease" or "Theory of Evolution". Each is as much a fact as the fact that this table I am sitting at is a table. If you allow that there is such a thing as a fact then these are all as sound as any you could mention being as they are backed up by mountains of interdisciplinary, mutually supporting evidence. They may be tweaked here and there in the future but it is extremely unlikely that they will be overturned.

I still don't completely agree with you but we are coming closer together now. A theory is NOT an ESTABLISHED FACT but it is a general idea or belief (in this case a scientific belief) that seems to logically explain something (in this case that something is either physics or biology) Over time that theory is either disproved or supported by further research and discoveries. It MAY come to be accepted as fact at some point but if that happens it is no longer THEORY. Yes theories (and facts for that matter) can and usually are tweaked from time to time. I already said I believe in evolution. There is just way to much evidence to dispute it. But it is still not completely proven (universally accepted might be a better term)

Even so; if evolution becomes a proven fact (and I believe it will) That would not discount the possibility of religion. Remember I'm trying not to focus on a single religion so don't just go back to the Judeo/Christian/Islamic concept of creation (although evolution doesn't in and of itself negate a creator of this or a similar sort guiding evolution) There are hundreds of other religious or quasi religious beliefs that don't depend on a creation as such..
 
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rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
I remember a talk with a dietician a few years ago and she told me she was dealing with more and more vegan children whose diet was just not up to scratch for a growing child, calcium deficiency, brittle bones, stunted growth etc.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
I remember a talk with a dietician a few years ago and she told me she was dealing with more and more vegan children whose diet was just not up to scratch for a growing child, calcium deficiency, brittle bones, stunted growth etc.

A true vegan diet is extremely difficult for an adult to maintain without some degree of malnutrician (a lacto-vegetarian diet is a bit easier but still not ideal) Its deficiencies are multiplied for for a growing child and is an irresponsible form of neglect IMO.
 

SimonD

Settler
Oct 4, 2010
639
1
Lincolnshire
That's what Fundamentalists believe; the bible as the ultimate (fundamental) authority with no organization or particular church/denomination. There are several denominations which might be called fundamentalists but the individual churches owe no particular allegiance to the denomination and likewise the individual members owe no particular allegiance to the individual church (what you would call a parish) It's simply a very loose confederation of similar believers. Each person interprets according to their own understanding.

Fundamentalism , by definition, is a strict adherence to, and interpretation of a set of basic principles, or fundamentals. Whether it is as an individual or a group has no bearing on the meaning of the word.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
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Florida
Fundamentalism , by definition, is a strict adherence to, and interpretation of a set of basic principles, or fundamentals. Whether it is as an individual or a group has no bearing on the meaning of the word.

As regards religion that "strict adherence to a set of rules" is the Bible (or in the case of Islam the Quoran) That in itself means that no group (meaning no church or denomination) can interfere with the individuals interpretation of said rules. I grew up in those churches. There is constant flux as members disagree and leave to form a new church on their own. There is no overiding organization that decides who can or cannot be ordained or if any individual or congregation is valid or not. They exist at will. Granted there are denominational organizations (there are at least a dozen different ones that call themselves some permutation of Baptist) but they have no authority over the congregations. Congregations can join them or not; they exist only for mutual support. In affect their is no "organized church" involved.
 
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mwelch8404

Member
Sep 14, 2004
14
0
Cedar City, Utah, USA
Evolution has been substantiated not proven (a very fine difference granted and FWIW I believe in evolution) There are, as Mwelch pointed out however, several theories of eveolution rather than one (at least several variations of the theory) Darwin's original concept of slow and gradual was complicated with the discovery of several mass extinctions; mostly now explained by various catostophic events. As far as the scientific meaning of "theory" vs the everyday meaning; Actually it IS the same for both.

Santaman... No it's not.

Theory
According to the United States National Academy of Sciences:

Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena,[7] [Emphasis added]

AND:

The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence. Many scientific theories are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them substantially. For example, no new evidence will demonstrate that the Earth does not orbit around the sun (heliocentric theory), or that living things are not made of cells (cell theory), that matter is not composed of atoms, or that the surface of the Earth is not divided into solid plates that have moved over geological timescales (the theory of plate tectonics). One of the most useful properties of scientific theories is that they can be used to make predictions about natural events or phenomena that have not yet been observed.[7] [Emphasis added.]

Scientific theory:

“A scientific theory comprises a collection of concepts, including abstractions of observable phenomena expressed as quantifiable properties, together with rules (called scientific laws) that express relationships between observations of such concepts. A scientific theory is constructed to conform to available empirical data about such observations, and is put forth as a principle or body of principles for explaining a class of phenomena.[1]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

The defining characteristic of a scientific theory is that it makes falsifiable or testable predictions. The relevance and specificity of those predictions determine how potentially useful the theory is. A would-be theory that makes no predictions that can be observed is not a useful theory. Predictions not sufficiently specific to be tested are similarly not useful. In both cases, the term "theory" is hardly applicable.
In practice a body of descriptions of knowledge is usually only called a theory once it has a minimum empirical basis, according to certain criteria:

• It is consistent with pre-existing theory, to the extent the pre-existing theory was experimentally verified, though it will often show pre-existing theory to be wrong in an exact sense.

• It is supported by many strands of evidence, rather than a single foundation, ensuring it is probably a good approximation, if not totally correct. (ibid)

The term theoretical
The term theoretical is sometimes informally used in lieu of hypothetical to describe a result that is predicted by theory but has not yet been adequately tested by observation or experiment. It is not uncommon for a theory to produce predictions that are later confirmed or proven incorrect by experiment. By inference, a prediction proved incorrect by experiment demonstrates the hypothesis is invalid. This either means the theory is incorrect, or the experimental conjecture was wrong and the theory did not predict the hypothesis. (ibid) [Emphasis added]
 
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SimonD

Settler
Oct 4, 2010
639
1
Lincolnshire
As regards religion that "strict adherence to a set of rules" is the Bible (or in the case of Islam the Quoran) That in itself means that no group (meaning no church or denomination) can interfere with the individuals interpretation of said rules. I grew up in those churches. There is constant flux as members disagree and leave to form a new church on their own. There is no overiding organization that decides who can or cannot be ordained or if any individual or congregation is valid or not. They exist at will. Granted there are denominational organizations (there are at least a dozen different ones that call themselves some permutation of Baptist) but they have no authority over the congregations. Congregations can join them or not; they exist only for mutual support. In affect their is no "organized church" involved.

I think I see what you are trying to say. I was getting a little too hung up on semantics :)
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
I think I see what you are trying to say. I was getting a little too hung up on semantics :)

It happens to all of us. Especially in a thread like this. LOL Actually I erred by saying "definition." I should have said by "nature."
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Santaman... No it's not.

Theory
According to the United States National Academy of Sciences:

Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena,[7] [Emphasis added]

AND:

The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence. Many scientific theories are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them substantially. For example, no new evidence will demonstrate that the Earth does not orbit around the sun (heliocentric theory), or that living things are not made of cells (cell theory), that matter is not composed of atoms, or that the surface of the Earth is not divided into solid plates that have moved over geological timescales (the theory of plate tectonics). One of the most useful properties of scientific theories is that they can be used to make predictions about natural events or phenomena that have not yet been observed.[7] [Emphasis added.]

Scientific theory:

“A scientific theory comprises a collection of concepts, including abstractions of observable phenomena expressed as quantifiable properties, together with rules (called scientific laws) that express relationships between observations of such concepts. A scientific theory is constructed to conform to available empirical data about such observations, and is put forth as a principle or body of principles for explaining a class of phenomena.[1]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

The defining characteristic of a scientific theory is that it makes falsifiable or testable predictions. The relevance and specificity of those predictions determine how potentially useful the theory is. A would-be theory that makes no predictions that can be observed is not a useful theory. Predictions not sufficiently specific to be tested are similarly not useful. In both cases, the term "theory" is hardly applicable.
In practice a body of descriptions of knowledge is usually only called a theory once it has a minimum empirical basis, according to certain criteria:

• It is consistent with pre-existing theory, to the extent the pre-existing theory was experimentally verified, though it will often show pre-existing theory to be wrong in an exact sense.

• It is supported by many strands of evidence, rather than a single foundation, ensuring it is probably a good approximation, if not totally correct. (ibid)

The term theoretical
The term theoretical is sometimes informally used in lieu of hypothetical to describe a result that is predicted by theory but has not yet been adequately tested by observation or experiment. It is not uncommon for a theory to produce predictions that are later confirmed or proven incorrect by experiment. By inference, a prediction proved incorrect by experiment demonstrates the hypothesis is invalid. This either means the theory is incorrect, or the experimental conjecture was wrong and the theory did not predict the hypothesis. (ibid) [Emphasis added]

I submit that the above is not a "definition" in the strictest sense. Rather it is one particular organization's (The United States National Academy of Sciences') interpretation of how THEY intend to USE the word theory. I agree that that interpretation is a very good one (my reply in post #166 is a less wordy paraphrase of it) I disagree on their definition (interpretation) of the everyday use of the word; it is essentially the same and any lesser standards is just a degradation of the word.
 

zarkwon

Nomad
Mar 23, 2010
492
1
West Riding, Yorkshire
I submit that the above is not a "definition" in the strictest sense. Rather it is one particular organization's (The United States National Academy of Sciences') interpretation of how THEY intend to USE the word theory. I agree that that interpretation is a very good one (my reply in post #166 is a less wordy paraphrase of it) I disagree on their definition (interpretation) of the everyday use of the word; it is essentially the same and any lesser standards is just a degradation of the word.

Come on now. It is not for you to agree or not agree with what is well established in our language and culture. It is for science to say what it means by "scientific Theory" as it is a technical scientific term. You may like it or not but simply holding an opinion does not entitle the owner to call it correct. Opinions are not facts.
 
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mwelch8404

Member
Sep 14, 2004
14
0
Cedar City, Utah, USA
OK, Santaman,

Ya don't like Yanks. ;-) Here's an excellent read on theory from a countryman:

"Conjectures and Refutations: The Growth of Scientific Knowledge is a book written by philosopher Karl Popper. Published in 1963 by Routledge,[1] this book is a collection of his lectures and papers that summarised his thoughts on the philosophy of science. Popper suggested that all scientific theories are by nature conjectures and inherently fallible, and that refutation to old theory is the paramount process of scientific discovery. Should any new theory survive more of such refutations, it would have a higher verisimilitude and therefore, Popper concluded, closer to truth.

Conjectures and Refutations is one of Karl Popper's most wide-ranging and popular works, notable not only for its acute insight into the way scientific knowledge grows, but also for applying those insights to politics and to history. It provides one of the clearest and most accessible statements of the fundamental idea that guided his work: not only our knowledge, but our aims and our standards, grow through an unending process of trial and error. Popper demonstrates how knowledge grows by guesses or conjectures and tentative solutions, which must then be subjected to critical tests. Although they may survive any number of tests, our conjectures remain conjectures, they can never be established as true.

What makes Conjectures and Refutations such an enduring book is that Popper goes on to apply this bold theory of the growth of knowledge to a fascinating range of important problems, including the role of tradition, the origin of the scientific method, the demarcation between science and metaphysics, the body-mind problem, the way we use language, how we understand history, and the dangers of public opinion. Throughout the book, Popper stresses the importance of our ability to learn from our mistakes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjectures_and_Refutations
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Come on now. It is not for you to agree or not agree with what is well established in our language and culture...

That's my point. It's not for an organization to agree or disagree with a definition well established in our language and culture. Especially an organization that has no official standing. The Accademy is not a governmental body. They are an association of proffessional scientists that is open to voluntary (not universal) membership which I believe must be by invitation (that sort of stacks the deck in favor of what they choose) They have a great reputation but they are not the only such assn. (probably one of the largest though)
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
OK, Santaman,

Ya don't like Yanks. ;-) Here's an excellent read on theory from a countryman:

"Conjectures and Refutations: The Growth of Scientific Knowledge is a book written by philosopher Karl Popper. Published in 1963 by Routledge,[1] this book is a collection of his lectures and papers that summarised his thoughts on the philosophy of science. Popper suggested that all scientific theories are by nature conjectures and inherently fallible, and that refutation to old theory is the paramount process of scientific discovery. Should any new theory survive more of such refutations, it would have a higher verisimilitude and therefore, Popper concluded, closer to truth.

Conjectures and Refutations is one of Karl Popper's most wide-ranging and popular works, notable not only for its acute insight into the way scientific knowledge grows, but also for applying those insights to politics and to history. It provides one of the clearest and most accessible statements of the fundamental idea that guided his work: not only our knowledge, but our aims and our standards, grow through an unending process of trial and error. Popper demonstrates how knowledge grows by guesses or conjectures and tentative solutions, which must then be subjected to critical tests. Although they may survive any number of tests, our conjectures remain conjectures, they can never be established as true.

What makes Conjectures and Refutations such an enduring book is that Popper goes on to apply this bold theory of the growth of knowledge to a fascinating range of important problems, including the role of tradition, the origin of the scientific method, the demarcation between science and metaphysics, the body-mind problem, the way we use language, how we understand history, and the dangers of public opinion. Throughout the book, Popper stresses the importance of our ability to learn from our mistakes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjectures_and_Refutations

You're missing my point. I more or less agree with their definition of scientific theory. What don't agree with is 1) the definition they gave for the everyday use of the word "theory" (it's the same thing only less wordy); and 2) I don't agree that they are the defining authority. Kinda ironic that I agree with their definition, just not their right TO define it. It's kinda like saying you cain't use the Bible to prove itself. First you have to prove it IS the authority. No one has made the USANS the official authority.

Oh, about not liking yankees; you're right. Take a look at my location :) Westerners are OK though. And MOST of the yankees I served with.
 
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Manacles

Settler
Jan 27, 2011
596
0
No longer active on BCUK
A true vegan diet is extremely difficult for an adult to maintain without some degree of malnutrician (a lacto-vegetarian diet is a bit easier but still not ideal) Its deficiencies are multiplied for for a growing child and is an irresponsible form of neglect IMO.

A good friend was a vegan, when he met his (now) wife who had two young kids from a previous relationship he changed from veganism to vegetarianism immediately for exactly the reason you outline here.

(The kids remained omnivores)
 
E

ex member coconino

Guest
Meanwhile, in the weird and wonderful world of physics, Fermilab in the US has announced findings which strongly suggest a new force ("technicolour") has been discovered, not predicted by the standard model. Confirmation by experiments at the LHC will cause huge shifts in our understanding of the universe. Watch this space!
 
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