the no-knot - or how to anchor a rope to a tree without using a knot...

[Dobloz]

hello there,

i've been thinking of how and what i could contribute to the forums.
a few posts i read asked or gave examples of knots to use when setting up fly sheets, bivvie's etc.
an easy knot i often use is what i call the no-knot.
i'm not sure if that is it's real name, but that is the name i was told when it was shown me

many of you may already know this method of attachment, but perhaps it may be useful for someone?

it is basically just reliant on friction. so take the end of your rope / guyline etc and wrap around and down the trunk of the tree,
(you can also wrap around a branch horizontally)



continue wrapping down the trunk, you can vary the number of turns based on the diameter and roughness of the trunk / branch.
more wraps for smaller diameters and smoother surfaces. 5 wraps is a good starting point.




to finish off you can just loop the rope end over itself, or tie a stopknot (then the no-knot becomes a knot...? )

you can adjust tension easily by unwrapping to toosen/tighten.

the wraps should go downward to stop the wraps falling/slipping down and becoming locked tight.

anyway, what do you think?

have you seen it before? does it have another name?

have you ever used it?


austin

 

[SimonM]

Never seen that before...how well does it cope with loading when you put a tarp on it?

I am willing to be corrected, but I don't think I would trust it without locking it off in someway.

Simon

 

[mrcharly]

I'm sorry but that is an absolutely terrible version of 'round turn and two half-hitches'.

Unless there is absolutely no slip in the round turns then it will jam and become untieable.

to quote "Any fool can tie a knot. A seaman can tie a knot that can be undone anytime"

Try the 'round turns' and then instead of finishing with the overhand, do a half-hitch with a doubled end.

 

[John Fenna]

I know of no other name for the "no-knot" but have used it extensively.
With a steady pull it will easily bear my 16 stone weight when tied in good old utility cord.
I do not think I would trust it for my hammock or for tieing up my canoe on rough water, but for holding a static weight (such as "mouse-bagged" food off a branch) it would be ample

 

[bearbait]

In my long-ago salty days we would call this a Time Knot: if you make enough turns and loops it'll take time before it eventually comes loose and compromises the security of that which you intended to secure!

Your principle of multiple turns for increased friction is fine. This how, for example, you can surge a line round a winch - perhaps with many thousands of kilos of load - under complete control just using one hand. But when you're done the working end would be secured round a bitts or cleat.

Most commonly-used practical knots take almost no time to tie and I would just use an appropriate one of those; half a dozen or so will generally suffice. You mention that the the no-knot can be easily adjusted; take a look at the midshipman's hitch - a rolling hitch tied to its own standing part, also sometimes known as a tautline hitch I believe, for a very useful adjustable knot. (I think technically that the final hitch on a midshipman's hitch is taken the opposite way to the first two, whereas the tautline hitch has the final hitch taken the same way as the first two; Ashley would call these two separate knots.)

If you're interested in knots see if you can get hold of The Ashley Book of Knots; some 3,800 or so will keep you occupied for a while, along with his drawings and interesting historical snippets.

 

[Gray]

Isnt this how cowboys tie up there horses outside the saloon

 

[ol smokey]

Just going to say what Gray has said.

 

[bilmo-p5]

ABOK is available as a free pdf download.

Here's a link.

 

[lou1661]

We use it at work for water based shenanigans, for tension diagonals and such like. Other than that I don't think I have used it at all.

 

[Dobloz]

hi chaps,

thanks for the interest!
it is great to hear your experiences and opinions.

hi Simon,

Never seen that before...how well does it cope with loading when you put a tarp on it?

the more load you place on the line, the more secure it is ( up to the breaking strain on the rope or the tree ... )
if the knot is to be used for an extended time, or on a moving anchor (ie swaying tree) yes, it is advisable to put a stop knot on the loose end.
however, if you have line left over you can loop it up in a shank and leave it hanging. the weight of the shank or line bag will prevent any creep of the line.

hi mrcharly,

I'm sorry but that is an absolutely terrible version of 'round turn and two half-hitches'.

i can see why you see it as that! :yikes:
and yes, two half hitches are great to use as a securing for the running or free end. the overhand knot is not a great one to use, maybe i should have done a figure 8 or half hitch

hi John,

I do not think I would trust it for my hammock or for tieing up my canoe on rough water,

i've used it for a hammock, no slippage problems there.
however, as you say, i would not use it for tying my canoe, or any task that involves the line becoming completely slack.
a waterman's hitch would probably be better, that is what i use normally, or a bowline.

hi bearbait,

Most commonly-used practical knots take almost no time to tie and I would just use an appropriate one of those;

absolutely! there are so many knots... 3800 :Wow:
the no knot is just one of many many ways, and is shared as such, thanks for the reference to the book


i came across this knot when we started using it at work a few years ago for water rescues.
having re-read through my notes, the americans call it a 'tensionless hitch'.

we use it to secure both ends of the carriage line, in a high line tyrolean boat tether system.
this knot is used as part of a water rescue system for reaching casualties mid-river, or pinned against objects, strainers and the like.



if you can see the horizontal lines in the pic above (not good quality sorry, its a snapshot from a video) they are the high line and tag lines, with the boat on a tether to allow lowering and retreival.

so we wrap the line round some convenient tree, attach pulley, cats paw and tag lines and go rescue.
the knot holds a dynamic load of two or three rescuers plus boat and however many casualties need rescue, never had it slip yet...

even so, as has been said, there are many knots out there, this one i find is easy to remember, easy to tie, easy to untie, does not weaken the line and is suitable for a constantly loaded line, but not for a load that slacks right off.

maybe, if you have not tried using it, you could give it a go and see what you think? :thinkerg:

sometimes, i believe that cautiously putting to the test something new can yeild some surprisingly beneficial results, and sometimes knot


thanks again for your input and time chaps, you have a great forum here!
i hope to learn and maybe contribute too, in some small way :You_Rock_

austin

 

[mrcharly]

Isnt this how cowboys tie up there horses outside the saloon

Yes and there is a reason why.

If the horse goes and starts acting up, the knot shakes loose before the horse is injured.

 

[Niels]

Yes and there is a reason why.

If the horse goes and starts acting up, the knot shakes loose before the horse is injured.

That makes a lot of sense

 

[Hog On Ice]

I use this method for my tarp lines - about ten wraps around the stake and its good for the night

 

[Dobloz]

thank you gentlemen,

for a good, diverse conversation and advice too!

let silence be kept in wisdom,
and opinion never triumph over experience.
let hope in the truth allow failure and mistakes
guide us from thought to action, knot complacency....

thanks again,

austin

 

[Bushwhacker]

Isnt this how cowboys tie up there horses outside the saloon

I though that was the outlaws knot.
I can't explain it very well, nor do I know the proper name, but it involves putting a loop within a loop - one side will tighten it and a tug on the other side will free it up.

 

[nigeltm]

This is known as a tensionless hitch when used for rope rescue work.

http://www.animatedknots.com/tensionless/index.php

I've used it a fair few times and on an 11mm rope it'll easily take my weight and the silly bugger that's got themselves stuck half way up a crag. Total weight well over 100kg! It's useful in rescues as it's very quick and easy to set up for the first guy over the edge when you have to get down there ASAP. In practice the friction on the abchor (typically a good size tree trunk) prevents the rope slipping. The krab shown in the link or any other know you tie on around the main line are for reassurance only .

I've never thought of trying it on a hammock or tarp but I think I'll give it a go!

 

[Ogri the trog]

I though that was the outlaws knot.
I can't explain it very well, nor do I know the proper name, but it involves putting a loop within a loop - one side will tighten it and a tug on the other side will free it up.

Perhaps you are thinking of a "Highwaymans Hitch"!
http://www.animatedknots.com/highwa...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Ogri the trog

 

[Bushwhacker]

Perhaps you are thinking of a "Highwaymans Hitch"!
http://www.animatedknots.com/highwa...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Ogri the trog

That's him!
Use it for tying horse reins up.

 

[bambodoggy]

I'm sorry but that is an absolutely terrible version of 'round turn and two half-hitches.

No need to be sorry as you're wrong, it's not a "terrible version of 'round turn and two half-hitches", it's a Tentionless hitch....different knot for a different purpose, tied differently with different strengths and weaknesses.
I am sorry, however, to point out your mistake....no offence

I'm an RYA sailer, an MLTB SPA holder and Tree surgeon so by and large I'm pretty good with ropework and knots

As others have mentined knots can reduce breaking strengths of lines and different knots cause different reductions so best to use the right knot where and if you can.

Hey Shaun, long time no speak/see hope you're well....and I've known that horse knot as a highwaymans hitch too....but I do like Outlaws hitch....sounds......exotic lol

Cheers all,

Bam.

 

[EdS]

standard knot used in water rescue situations and also liked by tree surgeons for lower in big lmbs.

Works fine on a hammock

and has been said - its not a knot its a hitch