The Great Hook Knife Passaround

[xavierdoc]

The Great Hook Knife Passaround commences! See the thread in "edged tools" for entry criteria. Mods, please feel free to move this; I couldn't find a specific "passaround forum".

I've had the knives for two days now. Since there are nine knives this post is really just some first impressions.

The nine (no, not Nasgul!):

Left to right, or Top to bottom:
Svante Djarv
.....Ben Orford x2
..........Del Stubbs
...............Robin-very-modded Frosts
...................Frosts x2 (single, pointed+double-sided blunt tip)
........................Frosts Hoof knife
..............................Bo Helgesson

Fit and finish are not major concerns with tools like these; as you can see, the brand-new Frosts have a smooth, regular finish to the handles and satin-finished blades. The Del Stubbs has an attractive polished finish to the handle and mirror-finish on the blade. The others have varying degrees of tooled-finish for the handles.

So far I have found the texture of the finish hasn't made a difference to the performance. The Svante Djarv (I think of this as "the rough bee-hive handle"!) gives excellent grip as it is textured- slightly abrasive. I prefer the slightly flattened or asymmetric cross-sectional profile typified by the Svante Djarv and Bo Helgesson as these give excellent rotational control and indexing within the grip (not sure what the best way to describe this is- perception of blade orientation and position. Proprioception is the medical equivalent! ) The Ben Orfords are a good compromise as the tooling is linear and prvides both grip and reference. I'll say more on these issues later.

All are hidden tang designs except the rivetted, half-tang hoof knife.

Only the Frosts have bolsters.

Anyway, these are tools to be used, not dribbled over, so I needed some wood to feed the hungry pack! Time to split out some blanks (used a Nessie I'm getting to know) and get the axe to work:

Luckily this is something I had done in advance as a week is not long to test nine blades! I'd recommend doing this to anyone who is next in the list.

Similarly, there was going to be a lot of sharpening and stropping to do. The Hoof knife is a bit of a b*gger for this, as the hook curvature is very tight. It has also been sharpenened (by the horse? -kidding) double-sided bevel and I didn't have a slipstone of the right size to get into the inside of the curve. I did find a solution:

Edge of 3.5mm veg-tanned, loaded with stropping paste.

The edge of the leather can be wrapped in micromesh for pre-stropping stages.

I set to work on a variety of spoon shapes: hoping to get hold of some wood suitable for kuksa, time permitting.

First piece (not fully finished):

Second (unfinished!) piece with the first spoon and third in progress, too:

I have barely been using the standard Frosts as my standard user is the double-sided Frosts.

I am going to get going with more carving and will post some specific thoughts on each knife as my feel for them grows.

One thing that is apparent already: with the exception of the hoof knife, all are superior to the Frosts double-sider that I am used to. Unfortunately, this means I will have to upgrade at some point, or modify it like Robin's.

I will try and persuade my wife to take some pics of the knives in use, to illustrate some features I have noticed.

It is a testament to the success of these tools that I am itching to get back in the garage for more! (However, arrival of in-laws today may scupper this! )

Thanks again to Robin Nicola.

 

[spamel]

Looks very interesting. I have the frosts one edged spoon knife and the hoof knife which I tend to use as a crooked knife. The curve I gave up on trying to sharpen! To be fair, I found the steel a bit rubbish on the hoof knife, it never gets to what I would describe as sharp.

 

[brancho]

All very interseting so far.
Looking forward to seeing more of this soon.

 

[Stew]

Looks very interesting. I have the frosts one edged spoon knife and the hoof knife which I tend to use as a crooked knife. The curve I gave up on trying to sharpen! To be fair, I found the steel a bit rubbish on the hoof knife, it never gets to what I would describe as sharp.

Surely it's a bit annoying having a hook knife with a blunt hook? Why don't you get in on the passaround to try some other types too?

 

[spamel]

The spoon knife is sharp, it's the hoof knife which is a bit duff, the one at the bottom of the second picture in the first post is the same one. To be fair, I don't do that much whittling so wouldn't give them a good enough work out to warrant being in on it, but I look forward to other peoples' findings!

 

[robin wood]

Great pics and comments Xav. I know in your position I would just be playing so thanks for taking the time to post.

The hoof knife is the first I have handled and had been used by Wellington on BB for its intended purpose for many years. It clearly originally was flat on the back and beveled on the inside only, I tried to return it as nearly as I could to that without loosing too much metal. I almost did not include it as it is quite a different thing to the others and as Spamel says more like a native American crook than a scandi hook. I can imagine using it as a mocotaugan, these are really one handed drawknifes and many seem to have very little curvature at all.

The Helgesse hook comes without handle so that rough job is mine....nice fit and finish? you can see I don't do sandpaper, or even take much time over refining the form on my tools. I tend to rough them out a bit oversize and whittle them down gently over time as I notice spots that don't work in my hand.

Del's knife I have had for 8 years and at some stage it got some small corrosion patches which I have not been able to completely polish out so there are a few areas of the blade which will not perform as well as a new one.

Most of the other hooks I find I hardly need to touch up during working, I'll normally carve many spoons before thinking about any honing but then it's maybe better to touch up little and often rather than waiting until its really needed.

Looking forward to seeing more impressions when you have played more Xav and it will be interesting to see what everyone else makes of them as they go around.

 

[xavierdoc]

The hoof knife is the first I have handled and had been used by Wellington on BB for its intended purpose for many years. It clearly originally was flat on the back and beveled on the inside only, I tried to return it as nearly as I could to that without loosing too much metal. I almost did not include it as it is quite a different thing to the others and as Spamel says more like a native American crook than a scandi hook. I can imagine using it as a mocotaugan, these are really one handed drawknifes and many seem to have very little curvature at all.

I can see what you mean about this knife. Both it and the Bo lend themselves to a palm up grip, thumb on pommel, for use as a draw knife. I tried the hoof-knife in this role. However, the blade of the hoof-knife is set at a slight angle to the handle and this meant it did not track well along the wood -tried to twist/fall off the piece. Of course, this might be improved if it was sharper and the bevel was truly optimised for wood.

The Helgesse hook comes without handle so that rough job is mine....nice fit and finish? you can see I don't do sandpaper, or even take much time over refining the form on my tools. I tend to rough them out a bit oversize and whittle them down gently over time as I notice spots that don't work in my hand.

Nice handle! It works well in several grips, including a dagger/draw grip with the thumb on the scalloped section of the pommel (I'll have to get a pic to show what I mean). I particularly like the rounded choil (for want of a better word) of this blade as it allows me to choke right up on the blade for control and leverage (I don't mean "that" sort of leverage! ).

Del's knife I have had for 8 years and at some stage it got some small corrosion patches which I have not been able to completely polish out so there are a few areas of the blade which will not perform as well as a new one.

I noticed some tiny speckled pits on the outer surface, near the edge. The knife cuts well, but leaves the tiniest of paired grooves in it's wake. Again, I'll try and get a piccy.

Most of the other hooks I find I hardly need to touch up during working, I'll normally carve many spoons before thinking about any honing but then it's maybe better to touch up little and often rather than waiting until its really needed.

My philosophy is little and often. In my inexperienced hands, a consistent and sharp edge is easier to manage, too. You can probably compensate to a better extent. Also, I don't want to have a mammoth last minute sharpening session the night before posting on to next lucky member!

I haven't had as much chance to get in the workshop these last few days as in-laws were staying (4 of 'em!) and I have a big presentation to give on tuesday (which I need to get done first). The in-laws are good people and brought gifts of wood, so don't think I'm complaining. I did allow a comedy period of splitting out green birch for the kuksa pictured in the thread on BB (Bushcraft sub-forum, robin's thread).

I'll post proper second report in due course!

 

[xavierdoc]

Well, I have finally had a chance to post the knives on to Alf (Brancho). RMSD today so should arrive tomorrow.

My laptop died (I think it's the CPU and another has been ordered) along with piccies for final impressions post. I still have the RAW files on the camera, but my desktop is so slow and unreliable I will probably wait until laptop is revived until I post.

Suffice to say, I think Alf will enjoy his time with the excellent selection of knives.

 

[brancho]

Well, I have finally had a chance to post the knives on to Alf (Brancho). RMSD today so should arrive tomorrow.

My laptop died (I think it's the CPU and another has been ordered) along with piccies for final impressions post. I still have the RAW files on the camera, but my desktop is so slow and unreliable I will probably wait until laptop is revived until I post.

Suffice to say, I think Alf will enjoy his time with the excellent selection of knives.

Looking forward to seeing them so I can finish the Kuksa I have started oh and a couple of spoons.

sorry to here about the CPU.

 

[brancho]

I have used all of the knives making a kuksa and some of them on a spoon (photos to follow when the light is better).

Initial thoughts are that if you bought any of these knives and did not use the others you would not be disappointed.
I have a spoon knife bought in Turkey for about £4 which is what I have used mostly. I have borrowed a Frost single edged knife which was much better.

Now to each knife on its own merits:


The Svante Djarv has similar shaped handle to the Frost’s but has no guard and it is a bit rougher to allow better grip I preferred the a slightly smoother handle. The blade is excellent and cuts really cleanly and is great for spoons and is effortless to use for this purpose.

The Ben Orford knives have the slimmest handles and blades. These blades are a dream to use and for spoons. the curvier blade would be cuts with such ease and so cleanly that I did not want to put it down. The straighter blade was good for parts of the Kuksa

The Del Stubs knife was the one I was drawn to on looks as the handle looks so nice, unfortunately I did not like the handle on this knife. While the handle is similar to the others in shape and size it tended to stick in the hand due polished finish. The blade is good and a different finish on the handle or type of wood would help this to become a great knife.

Robins highly modded frost knife is good for shallow work like spoons but was limited for use on the Kuksa.

The two standard Frost’s knives were new and unused when they arrived which unlike a clipper for instance; do not arrive at there best. Before you use them a few strokes on a fine stone and a bit of stropping is needed to get them ready to go. When they are sharpened they work well for the money. They both give a good clean cut. The handles do not look anything special but they are comfortable to use although I would give them an occasional rub with some linseed oil. The double edged blunt ended hook knife came into its own when making my Kuksa as I found if used the left handed edge in a back handed sort of chest lever grip I could remove a lot of wood quickly. I found the left handed edge useful for the Kuksa generally as it allowed me to make cuts with the grain all the way round the bowl. If it were my knife I would put a longer handle on the knife. The other improvement I think could be made is to have a longer bevel on these blades as the others work better for fine cuts mostly due to blade profile as far as I can tell.

I did not get on well with Frost hoof knife but that may be my lack of ability.

The Bo Helgesson Knife became my favourite in the end partly due being so versatile with the long handle which allowed it to be held in multiple positions. I was able to use it great effect to hollow out the bottom of the Kuksa and it worked well on the spoons.

These are the opinions of and inexperienced wood carver I have only made about a dozen spoons and three kuksas.

Here is what I made with them

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[KNC]

Thats some good stuff there.

 

[DoctorSpoon]

Lovely work Alf and really interesting to read your experiences of the knives. They are coming back here for a short period now as we are running our own course this weekend and some workshops for the Association of Pole Lathe Turners next weekend. It'll be interesting to find out what our learners make of them all - I'll post some feedback on here before sending them out again.
Nicola

 

[Dave Budd]

Well, it’s taken me a while to get around to writing up my thoughts on the spoon hooks, but here we go! J

First of, I would like to thank Dr Spoon and Robin for setting this up. As a maker of spoon hooks it was very useful to try out the competition

Below I’ve basically copied my notes made at the time of carving, so it starts with initial observations and leads onto conclusions before finishing with reflections and theoretical improvements (notes to me as a maker basically). I started out with a pile of similar spoon blanks, all of birch and used one for each knife. That way I was able to get a better idea of how each compared to each other with a similar task the photos that follow are of the carved bowl from each hook, showing the surface finish left.

(thanks to Xavierdoc for the photo)

The list below runs left to right across the photo, so S handle is far left and the long handled tool (bottom of list) is to the far right.

(S handle)
After a touch up of the blade it cut well. The handle has a good grip and offers good control (barrel shaped but flat on the sides). The blade points down too much making access to parts of the bowl difficult.

Ben Orford Deep hook
Cuts well, but not much reach due to the length of the blade, the tight curve cuts deep and cleanly. The handle is comfortable but a little skinny, so offers less control (and is more fatiguing) than a slightly fatter version of the same shape? The narrow blade makes tight turns easy and the thickness of the stock makes for a stiff and chatter free cut.

Ben Orford Shallow Hook
Too shallow for hollowing so no good if it’s the only hook you have. Clean cutting and shallow curvature leaves a smooth surface, so a good finishing tool. May be improved with a tighter curve at end after the shallow curve? Same handle size problems as above.

(A)
The handle is too polished and smooth, so gripping tightly enough to get a grip was strenuous, it is also a little narrow at the blade end compared to the centre (this means you slip forward!). It cuts ok, but I found it difficult to get a clean cut

Frosts (modified)
Handle is uncomfortable and offers less control than the original shape. The modified blade shape/grind cuts more cleanly and more easily, but without the hook is only any good for shallow cuts and finishing.

Frosts (unmodified)
Comfortable but smooth grip. Works well for deep cuts and the curve reaches below the handle, so useful fro getting in. Vicious point is completely useless and the return of the hook is too narrow to use, so chatters if used on a reverse cut. The edge angle appears to have been modified a little, which I’m sure helps it cut.

Frosts Double sided.
Handle fine, again. Blade is clunky, sticks in the wood, can’t make tight turns due to the width and is ruddy dangerous! The inability to apply pressure the back of the blade means I lost some control. I would rather have a left and a right hand hook for back and forth cutting: safer and more control.

Hoof Knife
Zero control. Blade too long, hook end too tight, internal bevel digs, handle is awkward to grip in a position that allows me to carve. Not possible to carve a bowl this time!

(Long handled hook)
The blade was a little loose in the handle but the blade was sharp with a shallow angle. The blade was too far from the handle for my taste, causing me to grip the tang (or riccasso if it were a knife) and rapidly leading to fatigue. The handle had some sharp corners that were a little uncomfortable. The blade is a bit on the wide side for some cuts, but was certainly workable. Once I got the hang of how the tool worked I got good results.



So after all that, I decided that the thoroughly sickeningly good (and nice guy) Ben has done it again. Though I wasn’t overly keen on the slenderness of the handles, Ben Orford’s knives where by far the best of the lot. Though I would want both shapes in left and right versions for my preferred technique of carving, I could happily get by with just the deep hook. The blades are narrow and stiff giving good clean cuts. My only other quibble was that the inside of the blades had been left with the ground surface of the original bar or GFS (about 60 grit), so the edge would always be a little toothy or honed to a micro bevel inside.

If you decide to get a cheap hook then get a frosts knife, but NOT the double edged version! Then grind that bloody stupid point off and lower the angle of the bevel as you start to resharpen it.

For me as a maker. I’ve redesigned my range of spoon hooks after this review, so I’m now making a new range with narrower blades and a barrel shaped octagonal sectioned handle I’m sure I’ve not settled on the best design, but I’ll have to get some expert feedback if anybody wants ot try some and give me their opinion I'll have some with me at the moot this weekend

 

[robin wood]

So after all that, I decided that the thoroughly sickeningly good (and nice guy) Ben has done it again. Though I wasn’t overly keen on the slenderness of the handles, Ben Orford’s knives where by far the best of the lot.

Thanks for the review Dave, glad it has helped you with your tools. Funny thing is I spent the weekend with Ben a couple of weeks ago and we spent a lot of time talking hook knife design and he is a big fan of the Helgesse hook too. Folk who are used to the tight hooks like frost, djarve and bens tight curve can swap between them without altering technique and tend to like what they know. For me (and for Ben) once the Helgesse hook is mastered it is in a class of its own. This is a problem as they are unavailable but I suspect Ben will have a clone out before long.

 

[DoctorSpoon]

Thanks for your input Dave

Because I'm so used to them I hadn't appreciated the different techniques needed for using more complex hooks until I organised the passaround at the Bodgers Ball and sat and watched people using them. So many folk only had one grip and if that didn't work they couldn't use the tool. There was just one guy (who is a very experience spoon carver) who had a whole range of different techniques he would run through to get them to cut. He, and the lass who was sat next to him watching him, managed to get them all working pretty well, even that lethal double edged Frosts!

Like you said, that singe edged Frosts is a good cheap beginner knife, but it does benefit from some work to the bevel. However, so much of the knack with these knives is keeping them sharp, so it's quite good to have the work to do!

Nicola

 

[Tadpole]

Like you said, that singe edged Frosts is a good cheap beginner knife, but it does benefit from some work to the bevel. However, so much of the knack with these knives is keeping them sharp, so it's quite good to have the work to do!

Nicola

Were the single edged frosts availible for left handed people I love to try it, I learnt to carve spoons with the double sided one, I'm sure if you start on that one you never even think about pressing one the back of the blade, as it is I just can't imaging how you would benefit from doing so. I'm looking forward to trying out the lefty spoons at the moot.

 

[DoctorSpoon]

Yes, the single edged Frosts also comes as a lefty. Having a much tighter curve it is a much more versatile tool and you'll find you can carve different shapes with it. Also, being able to press on the back of the blade does give you more power, particularly if you're working into difficult spots or with twisted grain.

I hope you get to try some different ones at the moot. If you've learned with a doubled edged Frosts you'll be amazed by the results!
Nicola

 

[Tadpole]

Yes, the single edged Frosts also comes as a lefty.

they are 'available', but no one seems to stock them, Not even BCUK or Axminster tools, they are either always out of stock, or if you ring someone who has them on their site they are "Waiting delivery" I've been stuggling to find one, but no more Dave B will be taking some lefties to the Moot, and hopefully one will have my name on it.

 

[brancho]

There was just one guy (who is a very experience spoon carver) who had a whole range of different techniques he would run through to get them to cut. He, and the lass who was sat next to him watching him, managed to get them all working pretty well, even that lethal double edged Frosts!

It is interesting to read this as when making the Kuksa the varying shapes sizes and angles came in handy when trying reach certain parts of the bowl and cut in certain directions. The Frosts double edged knife was really handy when used in a action where I cut with the blade moving away from me rather than towards me for finishing the bowl.

 

[DoctorSpoon]

Yes, I can imagine a double-edged blade would help with a kuksa - and you're not in much of a position to want to push the back of the blade either! It's the only time I ever use a leftie because I find when deep hollowing like that there are bits a tory won't reach.