The ambiguity of knife law

[petrochemicals]

I have just seen Theresa may arguing with Corbyn, Theresa made a statement about getting caught twice with a knife means that you go on holiday.

Given that

1 The courts are innstructed to follow a 100 percent procecution rate
2 The reason for having an offending article on you is upto the Judges whims, and a 100 percent procecution rate means that any reason without a tracable alibi and corroborating evidence will likely not meet requirements.

Does this mean if I have this folding pointed object, non locking but over 3 inches long on my person with out a specific intent, I get caught twice, I am off to the big house ? Judges will not accept the reason of "I thought I might use it" If so every school child in england has likely commited crimes worthy of incarceration.

 

[MartinK9]

No, because that is not a knife.

Unless you were waving that all four points of the compass in a protracted argument, it wouldn't even fall under an offensive weapon.

 

[Corso]

I think PC's arguing the legislation states

Offence of having article with blade or point in public place.

 

[Alan De Enfield]

No, because that is not a knife.

Unless you were waving that all four points of the compass in a protracted argument, it wouldn't even fall under an offensive weapon.

But that would lead to a circular argument, and could divide the jury.

 

[Janne]

This thread is going to go South soon......

 

[Janne]

If every school child ( of the correct age) in UK carried one of those would be legal, as they are supposed to use them?

 

[Darryl of Sussex]

This is not legal advice but for the sake of exploring this point in a protracted manner, without circling around it...roughly

So the first question is ‘how did you come to the attention of the Police?’ For doing what, twice, with a pair of compasses?

I dare say that you would be asked to explain yourself at the time you were stopped (and searched if it was found on you rather than taken off you) and if you were unable or unwilling to explain yourself coherently and was subsequently arrested for carrying eg.a pointed instrument without due cause/ an article that contravenes the law/ an article which had been used during an assault/ with suspiscion of intent to use it for an unlawful activity/ posing a risk... etc etc....

then the desk sergeant would assess you at the station as to whether or not the arresting officer stands a chance of eg. a successful prosecution/ preventing risk/ etc..... and decided to hold you pending further investigation/ psychiatric assessment/ bailed to appear/ charged to appear etc...

then if you found yourself in court after being incarcerated overnight and depending upon your psychological assessment by the duty psychiatrist and/or further corroborating evidence....still couldn't explain to a judge why you were carrying and/or had/ might have used/ actually used as a weapon a pair of compasses.... it’s getting less likely....

then if you were found guilty (CPS?) of committing an offence under (take your pick) and charged accordingly, by the sounds of it, you would be trying to argue your right to carry compasses in a public place with your MP, ECHR.....

That’s a lot of ifs and maybes... which could all be avoided by having a lawful reason eg. Going to school, not carrying such things about for no reason or by lying about your intent.

...roughly....

 

[Nice65]

I’d imagine the mods are quietly groaning to themselves.

 

[petrochemicals]

I’d imagine the mods are quietly groaning to themselves.

Yes , having been asleep due to it being so quiet.

 

[Fadcode]

I think you have to use a bit of sense when talking about this matter, not go off on a tangent, if a simple compass could be construed as an offensive weapon then logically everyone would be guilty of an offence,as we all carry pointed articles from Pens, and pencils etc. I don't think the New Laws if applied have the attention of doing this.
Saying that, it is possible for anything to be defined as an offensive weapon, it would depend on the manner to which it was used, for example, a baseball bat does not have a point, but if you threatened to hit someone over the head with it, it becomes an offensive weapon, common sense will prevail, and if you are taken to court a lot will depend on your demeanour and attitude at the time, to determine whether an offence has taken place.
I seen a TV/news article, where any custodial sentence under 12 months, will be served in the community rather than in a prison, so I dont know how this will affect knife Crime, etc.

 

[MrEd]

I think we should draw a line under this. You all seem to be going round in circles.

 

[Janne]

I find it weird you call that tool a compass. My head spins......

 

[Fadcode]

It was always known as a compass at school,,must admit it was one of the reasons I was always lost.........

 

[petrochemicals]

Something round here is obviously the source of great amusement, just goes to prove my point.

The point isnt what I was doing with the compass, I had no immediate alibi as in the case of a builder carrying a very dangerous locking flick knife (stanley) that he had forgot to take out of his pocket and placed on the bar at the pub when searching for change, and given that the home office is implementing a 100 percent procecution, the judge nor anyone else has a say. No alibi for a dangerous flick knife, 5 years.

If you must go off at a tangent Janne, actually its a pair of compasses.

 

[sunndog]

Are we calling a standard stanley knife a flick knife here or was it something else?

 

[Fadcode]

When any Law is introduced, it must contain 3 elements at least.:

1. The actual offence. eg. carrying a bladed instrument., speeding, etc, etc,
2. The defences, eg. Used in the persons work, eg. a screwdriver, Stanley Knife, Camping, battle re-enactment, Sikh ceremonial Dagger, etc, etc,.
3. The penalty, eg, maximum fine, period in Prison,

It is virtually impossible to achieve a 100% conviction rate for any offence,even Murder, and do remember it is not against the Law to carry a bladed instrument, providing it is within the Law, eg, non locking folder with a blade less than 3 inches.( as long as said instrument is not used as an offensive weapon, or in a threatening manner)

One other important point as stated in the OP, is that a 100% prosecution rate, does not mean a 100% conviction rate, what Mrs May might of meant is that she did not want Police Cautions to be given to repeat offenders, she would rather they appeared in Court..

 

[Janne]

Something round here is obviously the source of great amusement, just goes to prove my point.

The point isnt what I was doing with the compass, I had no immediate alibi as in the case of a builder carrying a very dangerous locking flick knife (stanley) that he had forgot to take out of his pocket and placed on the bar at the pub when searching for change, and given that the home office is implementing a 100 percent procecution, the judge nor anyone else has a say. No alibi for a dangerous flick knife, 5 years.

If you must go off at a tangent Janne, actually its a pair of compasses.

You are off a tangent, bringing Stanley knifes in. It was about that drawing aid you call a compass.

 

[petrochemicals]

Dangerous spring assisted

https://www.screwfix.com/p/stanley-fatmax-spring-assisted-folding-knife/5601t

As I have already said, you have to be using it directly, its no good saying youll use it tomorrow or you where using it earlier.

And as i have already said, there is no let off if the government pursues a 100 percent procecution. If they brought in a law in against having arms whilst being working class, with 100 percent procecution, this would be fairly easy to lock up everyone.

 

[sunndog]

Interesting one. Calling it a flick knife may be a bit dramatic since its really the handle that is opening and it doesnt look like you can close said handle with the blade extended.

 

[Nice65]

It’s not a flick knife, flick knives and gravity knives fall into a separate and category.This guy’s bandying around terms and misinformation that muddles things for those who aren’t familiar with the actual law. And according to post #9, it’s because the forum is a bit quiet.

All this thread is, is fodder for the anti knife lobby.