The Advantages of A flintlock Gun for Long Term Wilderness Living/Survival.

[Le Loup]

Please note that this information was written for Australia, in the UK you will have to check your local firearms laws. But flintlocks are being used in the UK by Living Historians & Historical Re-enactors, & there is no law against using the flintlock for hunting in the UK as far as I know.
Keith.
Advantages of a Flintlock Muzzle-loader.
1) Ammo is less expensive than a modern equivalent caliber firearm.
2) The smoothbore is very versatile, being able to digest round ball, bird shot, & buckshot, or any combination of two of these (can also use minies).
3) The fusil is lighter to carry than a modern equivalent sized gun.
4) You can vary the load if needs be.
5) The smoothbore will digest other projectiles besides lead.
6) Lead can be retrieved from downed game & remoulded with a simple mould & lead ladle. This means that you can carry less lead, & more of the lighter gunpowder.
7) You can make your own gunpowder.
8) You can use the lock to make fire without the need for gunpowder.
9) You can use gunpowder for gunpowder tinder fire lighting if needs be.
10) IF the lock should malfunction (these are very robust & it is not likely) you can easily repair it if you are carrying a few spare springs & a few simple tools.
11) If you do not have any spare parts & the lock malfunctions, you can easily convert it to a tinderlock or matchlock & continue using it.
12) You do not need a reloader, brass shells, caps, or primers. The latter have been known to break down in damp conditions or if they are stored for too long.
13) Wadding for ball or shot is available from natural plant materials or homemade leather or rawhide.
14) Less chance of being affected by future ammunition control legislation.
15) Gunpowder is easily obtainable providing you have a muzzle-loader registered in your name regardless of caliber (only NSW is looking at this legislation at present).
16) A .32 caliber flintlock rifle is more powerful than a .22 rimfire, less expensive to feed, more accurate over a greater distance, able to take small & medium sized game, & other than not being able to use shot (unless it is smoothbore), it has all the attributes of the other flintlocks.
17) Damage from a .62 caliber-.75 caliber pistol or long arm is in the extreme. Wounded prey is unlikely to escape.
18) By using buck & ball you are unlikely to miss your target. This load is capable of taking out more than one target.
19) There is less kick-back to a muzzle-loading gun.
20) Antique Flintlock muzzle-loading guns do not require a license, registration, or a permit to purchase in NSW Australia.

 

[Countryman]

Other than a shotgun a black powder gun would be illegal to hunt with in the UK. We have laws pertaining to both muzzle velocity and expanding ammunition that are designed to ensure a clean kill.

I think there are a few points I would disagree with in this list anyway. The Flintlock mechanism was superseded for a reason. It is slow to load and slow to fire. The ignition sequence is failure prone and the notable pause between pulling the trigger and bullet leaving gun gives wary game a chance to escape or at worst to move and cause a less than immediately lethal shot.

All black powder guns that are intended for use, as opposed to antiques, are covered by our Firearms Act and require Licencing to possess.

Black Powder in itself is an Explosive requiring an Explosives Licence in the UK to handle and store and another licence to travel with.

Sorry but until 100 years after the Zombie Apocalypse I cannot see these making a comeback.


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[Le Loup]

Other than a shotgun a black powder gun would be illegal to hunt with in the UK. We have laws pertaining to both muzzle velocity and expanding ammunition that are designed to ensure a clean kill.

I think there are a few points I would disagree with in this list anyway. The Flintlock mechanism was superseded for a reason. It is slow to load and slow to fire. The ignition sequence is failure prone and the notable pause between pulling the trigger and bullet leaving gun gives wary game a chance to escape or at worst to move and cause a less than immediately lethal shot.

All black powder guns that are intended for use, as opposed to antiques, are covered by our Firearms Act and require Licencing to possess.

Black Powder in itself is an Explosive requiring an Explosives Licence in the UK to handle and store and another licence to travel with.

Sorry but until 100 years after the Zombie Apocalypse I cannot see these making a comeback.


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1) Sorry but having used a flintlock for over 30 years I must tell you that if your flintlock is slow of firing, either your gun is faulty, or you are not using it properly.

2) Muzzle-loading smoothbores are not referred to as shotguns, they come in Fowler, Musket, Smooth Rifle & Fusil, I use a fusil. These however would be licensed under the shotgun category. All smoothbores can shoot a round ball should this survival need arise, though personally I would not fire a round ball in a Fowler unless I was assured of the breach wall being able to take the pressure.

3) Muzzle-loading guns are firearms & therefore do need a licence, just as they do in Australia. I never said that a replica did not need licensing/registration.

4) As I have already said, Living Historians & Historical Re-enactors are already using muzzle-loading arms in the UK, so obviously the licenses required for gunpowder are not a problem.

5) As far as making a comeback, well they already have.

Keith.

 

[Countryman]

1) Sorry but having used a flintlock for over 30 years I must tell you that if your flintlock is slow of firing, either your gun is faulty, or you are not using it properly.

Even percussion firearms have a delay!

2) Muzzle-loading smoothbores are not referred to as shotguns, they come in Fowler, Musket & Fusil, I use a fusil. These however would be licensed under the shotgun category. All smoothbores can shoot a round ball should this survival need arise, though personally I would not fire a round ball in a Fowler unless I was assured of the breach wall being able to take the pressure.


Not under UK Law.

A smoothbore Firearm with a barrel over 24" is a Shotgun.

The shooting of ball from a shotgun is a grey area over here. However outside of a range it would definitely be illegal.

3) Muzzle-loading guns are firearms & therefore do need a licence, just as they do in Australia. I never said that a replica did not need licensing/registration.

I was just setting the UK position out as this is Bushcraft UK.

As I recall the firearms rules in Oz are possibly harsher in some ways than the UK.

4) As I have already said, Living Historians & Historical Re-enactors are already using muzzle-loading arms in the UK, so obviously the licenses required for gunpowder are not a problem.

Lots of people have black powder guns in the UK but they are prohibited by law from using them for sport or hunting other than it being possible to hunt with them as a shotgun.

5) As far as making a comeback, well they already have.

Never went away here. Pistols are banned here. Black Powder Guns are under there own classification so owning and shooting Black Powder pistols escaped the '96 ban.


Keith.

Oopsy, done that wrong!

 

[Le Loup]

Oopsy, done that wrong!

Sorry but you don't appear to be reading what I said correctly. Please stop trying to find fault with my posts & simply try to understand what I am actually saying!!! There is less than a one second delay in a percussion or a flintlock, game does NOT have a chance to get away. Do you think that having fed my family using a muzzle-loader for over 30 years that I am mistaken or worse, lieing???!!!

I will not apologise for knowing more than you do. It is not that I am smarter than you, it is just that I am an old man now & may have had more experience than you have. DO NOT take offence because someone knows more than you do about anything, learn from it.
Keith.

 

[Countryman]

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick.

Shame you have taken offence!

Just because I have stated the legal position in the UK and disagree on the high regard you have for flintlocks rather than the efficiency of hunting with more modern firearms neither makes me wrong nor indicates you have any superior knowledge.

Wouldn't dare to put myself on any sort of pedestal on this forum Cobber, as there are some surprisingly knowledgable folk on here from around the globe.


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[TeeDee]

I'll go get the measuring tape....

 

[Countryman]

Some people take life too seriously!


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[TeeDee]

Agreed. But we have all been guilty of that at ones stage or another haven't we?

 

[boatman]

If it were lawful in the UK, a bow with a competent archer would do the business. Presumably the skill is mostly in the stalk or the positioning no matter what hunting tool is used. The whole thing can be made at home.

How often does a regularly used flintlock have to be reproofed?

 

[Man of Tanith]

Moved to fair game as it relates to firearms and my work it system just went haywire and i had to do some rapid explaining to the IT dept (on a sunday!)

its an interesting topic of conversation
Le Loup you definitely hold the flintlock as your own personal ideal hunting tool and its definitely outside of the box thinking.
Countryman you make some useful comments about the legislation and requirements relevant to the UK
Boatman a bow is definitely something a lot easier to maintain and produce at home

myself in this hypothetical outlook i would go mainly for traps/snares and fishing options for the majority of my protein need aquisitions

 

[Countryman]

Sure TeeDee and it's easy to get upset when it's about something that we are passionate about.

Bottom line here is that UK law doesn't permit the use of this kind of weapon to be used for the purpose that the OP suggested.

There are solid welfare reasons for this.




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[santaman2000]

I agree that flintlocks by nature are more failure prone than modern ammo, but Le Loup's quite right about the ignition time; if your gun is slow to fire (like the slow crack you usually hear in period movies?) you don't have the right powder mix.

Here in the US black powder's also an explosive and requires a hazardous fee to ship (although no special license is required to keep or transport it unless you're dealing with commercial amounts) but most people get around that expense by using the modern substitutes instead (such as Pyrodex)

Le Loup's also partly correct in that primitive firearms have already made a comeback for hunting. I say "partly" because caplocks are vastly more prevalent than flintlocks among hunters. For now my 50 caliber Hawkin is my muzzleloader of choice although I'd love to get a 12 gauge at some point also.

 

[santaman2000]

Regarding the ability of a black powder gun to take game, thousands of deer, feral hogs, elk, cougar, black bear, and assorted other big game are taken every season with no problems.

 

[Idleknight]

An ex of mine did american war reenactment and due to using the arms, she had a shotgun and black powder licence. Great ID for getting served in the pub at the time.
Interesting stuff, using one for survival.

 

[Richard Francis Burton]

myself in this hypothetical outlook i would go mainly for traps/snares and fishing options for the majority of my protein need aquisitions

Nail on head. Traps & Snares all day long. Pissing about with maintenance of Firearms. Over-rated in my opinion.

Another option to consider would be Lead loaded Catapults. With a well developed skill set they are reliable. ( though my Catapult skill set needs plenty of working on )

 

[Janne]

Please note that this information was written for Australia, in the UK you will have to check your local firearms laws. But flintlocks are being used in the UK by Living Historians & Historical Re-enactors, & there is no law against using the flintlock for hunting in the UK as far as I know.
Keith.
Advantages of a Flintlock Muzzle-loader.
1) Ammo is less expensive than a modern equivalent caliber firearm.
2) The smoothbore is very versatile, being able to digest round ball, bird shot, & buckshot, or any combination of two of these (can also use minies).
3) The fusil is lighter to carry than a modern equivalent sized gun.
4) You can vary the load if needs be.
5) The smoothbore will digest other projectiles besides lead.
6) Lead can be retrieved from downed game & remoulded with a simple mould & lead ladle. This means that you can carry less lead, & more of the lighter gunpowder.
7) You can make your own gunpowder.
8) You can use the lock to make fire without the need for gunpowder.
9) You can use gunpowder for gunpowder tinder fire lighting if needs be.
10) IF the lock should malfunction (these are very robust & it is not likely) you can easily repair it if you are carrying a few spare springs & a few simple tools.
11) If you do not have any spare parts & the lock malfunctions, you can easily convert it to a tinderlock or matchlock & continue using it.
12) You do not need a reloader, brass shells, caps, or primers. The latter have been known to break down in damp conditions or if they are stored for too long.
13) Wadding for ball or shot is available from natural plant materials or homemade leather or rawhide.
14) Less chance of being affected by future ammunition control legislation.
15) Gunpowder is easily obtainable providing you have a muzzle-loader registered in your name regardless of caliber (only NSW is looking at this legislation at present).
16) A .32 caliber flintlock rifle is more powerful than a .22 rimfire, less expensive to feed, more accurate over a greater distance, able to take small & medium sized game, & other than not being able to use shot (unless it is smoothbore), it has all the attributes of the other flintlocks.
17) Damage from a .62 caliber-.75 caliber pistol or long arm is in the extreme. Wounded prey is unlikely to escape.
18) By using buck & ball you are unlikely to miss your target. This load is capable of taking out more than one target.
19) There is less kick-back to a muzzle-loading gun.
20) Antique Flintlock muzzle-loading guns do not require a license, registration, or a permit to purchase in NSW Australia.

Well.

For a start, very few hunters use Black Powder, they use Pyrodex.
Black Powder is highly explosive and dangerous to store, carry and use.

1: Reloading and casting your bullets brings the cost down to almost nothing. A few cents for the powder, a few cents for the primer.

2: Combination? Read my point on 18

4: Varying powder loads is easy if you reload. Plus you can use vary the projectiles considering weight, expansion rate, material and so on in a contemporary cased round. Including home cast lead alloy bullets ranging from round balls, wadcutters to torpedo.

5: so can a modern gun, if you are just as crazy.

6: see 4. Casting own bullets for a cased round is just as easy as casting a round ball for a muzzle loader

7: True. If you have all the components. The only component that is easy to make is the C powder. But you get an end product of varying quality and power/ strength, which makes ethical hunting challenging.
Also it is a fairly dangerous thing, to make your Black Powder. Ask your home insurer what they say you doing that!

9: you can use modern propellant this way too. It is even better as it burns slower. No flash to roast your hands and face, plus ignites the grass, tinder or twigs better.

12: I have never had a non functioning primer. Misfire due to a badly seated one yes, but then it fired the second time.

13: no need for wadding in a modern cartridge. Can be used when reloading shotgun shells if you run out of the plastic cups though.

14: depends on the country, right?

15: see above

16: To compare a .32 with a .22 LR or SR is stupid and wrong. Apples and Oranges.
A .32 round ball has far less energy than any modern .30 round.
A .32 round ball has far less energy than any other .22 ammo, LR and SR excepted.
(.223 - far, far more powerful, and so on....)
.32 more accurate over a greater distance? Is the author completely out of his mind or just suffers from wishful thinking? 22 ammo is hyper accurate up to 100 meters or so compared. Any other calliber including and beyond that range.
A round ball fired from a smooth bore muzzle loader can never, ever be as accurate as a modern round.
The trajectory is more parabolic due to lower speeds. Plus the aerodynamic form of the projectile. The accurancy is lower du to the no-spin of the projectie.

You can use shots in ammo .38 or bigger using the plastic shot containers developed fir this purpose.

Poachers in Scandinavia take moose with a .22 LR rifle. It is not the size, it is where you put it......
(I even think a .22 Magnum is more powerful than a .32 roundball from a musket?)

17: Stupid claim. Sure the damage is huge. But I can produce a bigger wound canal by using a .22 calliber bullet.
How? By bending the tip of my .233 FMJ so it spins. Plus I can choose to hit a front leg in 150 meters. You can not do that with a smoothbore.
Hitting anything with a .75 smoothbore pistol would be challenging. In fact I did not know they made .62 or bigger pistols.

18: Mixing a ball and shots in the same load sounds crazy. You are introducing one more unmeasurable variable.
Even if you have extremely consistant ball/ shot mix ( exact number of shots, exact weight of each ball and shot)

The accurance and range of the ball will be compromised as the shot take away a lot of the energy.
And claiming that you can take multiple targets - like what? A sitting flock of birds? Highly unethical. Immoral.

19: A .32 has far more recoil than a .22LR or .22 SR

Loads of people hunt with muzzle loaders. Or bow and arrow, blow gun, airgun, crossbow.
Yes you will get the game.
But at what cost? A modern expanding bullet will give a quick, humane death to the animal. To achieve this with any other method is difficult, as you with those need to achieve a clean heart hit.
It is well proven that game suffers far more for longer on average using those techniques.

 

[forrestdweller]

how difficult would it be to convert a percussion muzzleloader into a flintlock?! (in case you run out of percussion caps)I'm not an expert --just curious.....-- but after the invention of the percussion cap it was not uncommon to convert flintlock weapons to percussion cap; apparently the misfiring rate for the "brown Bess" dropped from 30% down to 2% after switching to percussion cap..... I guess the same was true for hunting weapons of the time?!

 

[Countryman]

Janne +1

Think this is the answer I might have written given a bit more time and thought.

Santaman even Loup agrees you cannot compare "sub second" ignition of a Flintlock or Cap n Ball gun with the ignition of a modern firearm. You also have a much slower muzzle velocity. All told plenty of opportunity for any of the animals on your list to start at the mechanics of ignition, move and for your carefully aimed shot to become non fatal.

How long is the Historic Firearms season in your state compared to the rifle hunting season?

Why is it different?

Really anybody telling me that they think that a Flintlock can compare for reliability, efficiency, range and versatility to hand loads in a modern rifle genuinely is deluding themselves.

I love black powder guns, they are fun and have a sense of nostalgia but I'm not using them to feed my family or hit a cull target.


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[Janne]

how difficult would it be to convert a percussion muzzleloader into a flintlock?! (in case you run out of percussion caps)I'm not an expert --just curious.....-- but after the invention of the percussion cap it was not uncommon to convert flintlock weapons to percussion cap; apparently the misfiring rate for the "brown Bess" dropped from 30% down to 2% after switching to percussion cap..... I guess the same was true for hunting weapons of the time?!

Easy if you have a fairly well equipped workshop.
Means to drill, to tap, files.
Plus flint.