Technology

[*Big Beast*]

I find myself having to ask, as this forum is about bush craft skills and keeping the old ways alive is this a necessary forum in this community, GPS, Mobile Phones, etc, are they really part of bush craft skills?
The reason i ask is because i have just been watching a programme on BBC3 about the Congo. This programme raised a question?

What is the cost of this high end technology?

How much did your mobile phone cost?

What does it cost to make your mobile vibrate to alert you to a call or email?

How much is your lap top worth?

For those who are on this forum as genuine bush craft interested and skilled people to be using the above to me sort of makes a total mockery of what bush craft is all about.

Now before you all pin me to the wall and shoot me with poison arrows or the staff close my account and ban my IP address please use your lap tops and computers to check on the BBC I player and watch this programme, it will show you the true cost of the vibrate button on your mobile phone!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00rvbsj

 

[helixpteron]

Define irony...

A 4 X 4 enthusiast berating people over the "true cost" of the vibrate function on their mobile phone!

A function which the buyer has no say whatsoever in the decision process of the manufacturer to install in the phone.

 

[*Big Beast*]

Define irony...

A 4 X 4 enthusiast berating people over the "true cost" of the vibrate function on their mobile phone!

A function which the buyer has no say whatsoever in the decision process of the manufacturer to install in the phone.

well, are women and children raped and treated like dirt to produce a 4x4? or did you not watch the programme before you jumped in with your reply.

 

[helixpteron]

well, are women and children raped and treated like dirt to produce a 4x4? or did you not watch the programme before you jumped in with your reply.

No, I did not watch any programme before I posted my irony based reply.

A reply which you evidently missed the point of, namely irony!

 

[*Big Beast*]

No, I did not watch any programme before I posted my irony based reply.

A reply which you evidently missed the point of, namely irony!

4x4`s can and do come in very handy around the world and are used for more than just fun, if you did not watch the programme how can you comment?? as i said, how many women & children are raped to produce a 4x4?, thousands are raped for the sake of a vibrate button that we can all do without!!

 

[Chinkapin]

Big Beast:

I know exactly where you are coming from. I kind of feel the same way at times, and I have thought about this a great deal. However, if you really think about the history of technology and its interface with nature, you can come up with some good examples that might shed some light on the subject. For instance, when the compass first became practical did anyone who was going exploring, choose to leave it behind because it made a mockery of exploration. Or take the example of firearms and American Indians. As soon as soon as they saw them, they knew that the bow was in most cases inferior. They could be better hunters; defend themselves more easily, etc. They took to them like ducks to water. In fact they got a bit ahead of the curve. At the Battle of the Little Bighorn, the Sioux and their allies were armed, for the most part, with repeating rifles and the 7th Cav. was armed with single-shot rifles that extracted but did not eject the fired shell. Do you suppose any Indian going into battle that day, considered that he should leave his rifle at home and take only a traditional bow? That some how the rifle did not fit into the "true" Indian life-style?

Now by the same token, a mobile phone, or a gps is absolutely the same thing. If you wanted to pursue this argument to its logical conclusion, you would not only say no to gps, but to maps and compasses. Take it one step further, no modern clothes, or how about no clothes at all? There is absolutely, no place to logically stop, until you become naked, with a flint knife, and a sharpened stick.

Now having said all of that, I don't use cell phones or gps devices in the woods, myself, but if someone is going into an isolated or dangerous area, I say it would be foolish not to take something along that line. On the other hand, if some guy wants to sit at my campfire and make non-essential phone calls, then I say it is time to shove the Mora clipper right through that phone.

 

[*Big Beast*]

yes advancement in technology is needed and it does have its place, i`m not really arguing that point, i`m more concerned that in this modern world of tech` we have now made a vibrate button on a mobile phone worth the rape of women and children to get what is really nothing that important to keep us moving forward.

 

[Chinkapin]

Unfortunately, anytime anyone in America tries to watch a BBC imbeded video, we get the message, "Sorry, not available in your area." So, unfortunately I am not able to watch it. However, I think I gather from your post what it is about.

You did ask if mobile phones, gps, etc are part of bushcraft skills. I would say to you that I do not think that knowing how to use a mobile phone is a bushcraft "skill." But, a mobile phone could be a valuable asset if you were laying in the woods alone and hurt. On the other hand, a gps device is, I feel, a valid bushcraft tool and knowing how to use one would be a potentially important "skill."

Regarding your point about women getting raped and killed by people who are in conflict over the raw resources of the mobile phone "vibrator," this is an entirely different thing. ( I hope I am understanding the unseen video -- cut me some slack here, please.) This is a moral question, "does buying a vibrating phone help bring about the rapes and deaths of women in the Congo?" This question, while valid, has little or no application to "bushcraft."

Those of us who drive around in 4X4s (I'm one) could just as well ask ourselves if burning gasoline in a generally low-mileage vehicle, helps to pour billions of dollars into certain Arab nations who use it to turn around and fund Al-Queda, and the Taliban. Does driving in the woods, help get peoples heads chopped off on television? Same question, really. Do we have a collective guilt here? An individual guilt? Should we throw away our phones and send our cars to the trash heap? I don't have the answers.

 

[Tony]

Guys, this thread is one that could easily go off course, in my view it's started already with your using the same statement over and over BigBeast, the OP was fine, it raised a point you wanted to talk about but as soon as it was challenged in any way you defended and again and again.

The question of technology and bushcraft comes up again and again, there's a camp full of traditionalists and there's a camp of modern bushcrafters and many that wander in between just taking what they want from the whole lot. Mors K looks to modern materials and technology in a drive to innovate constantly, he has all the old skills he can use but he doesn't shun the new stuff.

Fighting over technology and the harm it can do is a political statement, if there's issues with phones then the phone companies should be lobbied, people should not buy them based on their conscience etc etc. When it comes to political ranting very little is allowed on bcuk, alhtough the point raised is a good one let's not let this deteriorate, keep it factual, non repetitive and civil, I don't want any fighting or i'll just close it and remember this is a family friendly forum so watch how you speak.

 

[TomBartlett]

Being outside of the UK I also can't watch the program but I think I get the gist of it from what you're saying. A lot of our modern gadgets have hidden costs we don't think about. Most people don't take into account the full life of a product, from the extraction of the raw materials, to wear it goes after you're finished with it. I think a better understanding of the full 'life' of consumer products, not just its time in our hands, can only be a beneficial thing.

 

[Toddy]

It occurs to me that without those pieces of modern communication none of us would have known that there *was* a problem in the first place

Maybe, instead of excoriating folks for using such equipment, it might be better to praise the huge spread of knowledge that such equipment enables us to access.

Now if you were to take that to it's logical conclusion, and source and post a link where one might communicate one's disquiet and distress to someone who is actually in a position to do something about the situation in the Congo, then we might all be able to usefully contribute.
Luddites went the way of the dodo.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[*Big Beast*]

Guys, this thread is one that could easily go off course, in my view it's started already with your using the same statement over and over BigBeast, the OP was fine, it raised a point you wanted to talk about but as soon as it was challenged in any way you defended and again and again.

The question of technology and bushcraft comes up again and again, there's a camp full of traditionalists and there's a camp of modern bushcrafters and many that wander in between just taking what they want from the whole lot. Mors K looks to modern materials and technology in a drive to innovate constantly, he has all the old skills he can use but he doesn't shun the new stuff.

Fighting over technology and the harm it can do is a political statement, if there's issues with phones then the phone companies should be lobbied, people should not buy them based on their conscience etc etc. When it comes to political ranting very little is allowed on bcuk, alhtough the point raised is a good one let's not let this deteriorate, keep it factual, non repetitive and civil, I don't want any fighting or i'll just close it and remember this is a family friendly forum so watch how you speak.

point taken. This was not meant as a political rant, nor was is meant to cause argument or trouble.
I was trying to ask people as keen bush crafters; traditional,modern or mixed, is the cost of the modern technology that is used today worth the suffering of others?
In bush craft there is a place for GPS, a mobile is a great in an emergency situation, but at what cost?
Traditional bush craft skills used by people all around the world are being lost, the Congo as part of Africa has tribes that used these skills, now these same tribes murder,rape and torture each other for modern technology to advance and their tradinional skills are lost to most of them, this happens all over the world and not just to produce a vibrate button on a mobile phone.
Modern tech` gadgets have a place but at what cost to traditional skills?

 

[FreddyFish]

It's a doozey alright......

I did watch the program, and it does highlight some big issues with how we in the western world acquire our technology at great cost and detriment to poorer countries around the world.

And I know what your saying about us sitting here typing away about the wonderful natural world etc etc.

You could say it's a oxymoron to have a 'electronic bushcraft forum' but I think it would be sad if we didn't as there is only a 'relativity' small number of us interested in the subject and without such a forum as this it would be a lot harder to fuel the fire of interest in Bushcraft.
So I'm sure without this type of forum the dissemination of information would suffer and the skills we all love so much would probably die out quicker.

So your 'dammed if you do and dammed if you don't'

 

[rik_uk3]

Not much critisim of the people carrying out the evil deeds here? IIRC the Congo has a history of having an element of truly evil people in their society who are quite happy killing others, hacking people to death, raping/killing Nuns and women and children.

Pity there is not enough oil there to warrant an invasion to bring peace and democracy to the country.

 

[*Big Beast*]

It's a doozey alright......

I did watch the program, and it does highlight some big issues with how we in the western world acquire our technology at great cost and detriment to poorer countries around the world.

And I know what your saying about us sitting here typing away about the wonderful natural world etc etc.

You could say it's a oxymoron to have a 'electronic bushcraft forum' but I think it would be sad if we didn't as there is only a 'relativity' small number of us interested in the subject and without such a forum as this it would be a lot harder to fuel the fire of interest in Bushcraft.
So I'm sure without this type of forum the dissemination of information would suffer and the skills we all love so much would probably die out quicker.

So your 'dammed if you do and dammed if you don't'

i agree with you about the forum keeping skills alive, don`t get me wrong, i have a GPS, a lap-top,etc and a mobile phone, the programme just opened my eyes to something i had never given a thought to before, what makes that phone in your pocket buzz when you get a call? The programme educated me on that one in more ways than one. I will think now when my mobile rings about those suffering so i can have the technology in my pocket. What i can do to change it i have know idea yet.

 

[Melonfish]

if we're going down this route then we want to start asking, how much blood did our food cost? how many people died to make sure our houses are warm at night?
Bluntly, the british empire was built by rich people standing on poor people, then going abroad and standing on other poor people whilst sticking sheffield steel in those people that argued about us taking their valuables.

this is somewhat of a circular arguement and what Freddyfish said "your damned if you do and your damned if you don't" rings true, our society has grown to a point whereby we need items like microwaves and cars and rail travel etc and rely on supermarkets with imported food rather then local shops and local produce.
its a fact of life and business and there's very little we can do to change it individually.
one of my hates tbh is that we send money abroad to help out countries that rightly go round killing each other then cry out for aid whilst we let the homeless, the orphaned and the elderly starve or freeze to death on a regular basis then spend 6 months and millions of pounds launching enquiries about it only to let it happen again.
I really could go on but you know i think i best stop here okenest:

 

[gregorach]

well, are women and children raped and treated like dirt to produce a 4x4? or did you not watch the programme before you jumped in with your reply.

To produce it, maybe not (although if it's been produced recently enough to contain microelectronics, then quite possibly yes). To fuel it, most definitely.

These elements are used practically everywhere, not just in mobile phones. Tantalum in particular is extremely widely used - it's in practically every single electronic device (i.e. just about everything) produced in the last 15 years or so. However, despite containing most (~80%) of the world's coltan reserves the DRC only supplies a tiny proportion of production (about 1%) - the majority actually comes from Australia. Niobium mainly comes from Canada and Brazil.

 

[gregorach]

IIRC the Congo has a history of having an element of truly evil people in their society who are quite happy killing others, hacking people to death, raping/killing Nuns and women and children.

Yeah - they used to be called "the Dutch". These days they're mostly "security contractors" (aka "mercenaries"), many based in the UK, although they do hire local muscle.

 

[springer5]

This is a moral question, "does buying a vibrating phone help bring about the rapes and deaths of women in the Congo?" This question, while valid, has little or no application to "bushcraft."

Whilst undoubtedly a "moral question", I would disagree that it has little or no application to Bushcraft.

In the first case, if we allow moral awareness and responsibility to be "picked up and put down" as and when we are doing particular activities that it may get in the way of, then that should be of concern in itself.

Aside from that however, from what I have gathered during my time on this forum, I have been given to believe that Bushcraft is, amongst other things, about adopting that "leave no trace" and "live in tune with the world around you" mentality.

Consequently, it follows to me that the choice of equipment we use when living out those "bushcraft values" should try to reflect that mentality with some degree of reasonable balance.

If I take with me a device which is believed to be synonymous with the rape and murder of innocent people, then think for one moment that I am still living by "bushcraft values" when I, for example, make sure there is no trace of my campfire left behind the next morning, the latter pales into insignificance (or is even made a mockery of) by my acceptance of the former.

Surely such issues are therefore most certainly of great significance to Bushcraft, perhaps even at the heart of it...or should be!

 

[springer5]

To produce it, maybe not (although if it's been produced recently enough to contain microelectronics, then quite possibly yes). To fuel it, most definitely.

So should the real question be, "should we be trying to minimise our part in it as much as is within our power in order to observe those "bushcraft values" we hold so dear?"

It is undeniable that we, the "small guy consumers" have very little direct input in how a device is designed and built. No one asks us whether or not we agree with using this, that or the other component. But if we do buy, that is a statement that we're happy to be part of it I (if we think about it at all - which the folks on this thread obviously do).

At the same time there are some items that are (arguably) genuinely difficult to avoid, that many of us are "locked" into using in the more fundamental aspects of our lives (like getting to work in some areas, making a living, saving lives etc.) as some 4x4s are (and I'm specifically talking about cases where they needed, not just a fashion accessory). But (and it's a big but) comparing items that fall into such categories of "need" with those such as something that makes your mobile phone buzz is hardly like for like. Many would say that haing a mobile phone can save lives, run businesses etc. but that's not what we're comparing here. An earlier post was referring to the buzzing effect, not necessarily the phone itself.

4x4s have been known to save lives. In a ultilitarean sense this does help to justify them in certain situations, but unless someone is stone deaf (where a special case could be made) NO phone that buzzes (as opposed to just ringing normally) is going to be worth the suffering it causes because it will not make the difference between life and death in the same way as some vehicles might (indeed have done).

Put simply, the creation of both vehicle fuel and buzzing phones cause suffering, but only the former has shown even the slightest track record of offsetting this by conversely reducing some suffering, the latter has only ever been a pure convenience.

Having said all that , is is really hard to know where we as a society should draw the line when balancing "cost" (in terms of disruption and suffering) with benefit (in terms of justification). Much of our tehcnology falls into that difficult "grey area" where it's hard to be sure benefits justify the suffering or vica versa, but unless anyone can come up with a case where a phone buzzing (instread of ringing) has saved lives, then it's pretty hard to see any justification for the "rape and murder" it causes.....isn't it ????

What does anyone else think ?