Survival tin --- what should a good one contain?

[rik_uk3]

Best thing to go in a baccy tin is baccy, papers and a bic lighter, lets be honest, survival tine in the UK are a waste of time as you should be carrying what you need anyway

 

[crazydave]

lets be honest thats a pretty blinkered view you have there. tins are usefull everywhere unless you dont realise thier value. if you have correctly packed pockets then yes you can get away without one but mistakes happen or stuff gets lost.

with a good tin you can sort out - a headache, a cut finger or larger wound, athletes foot or treat a koi pond, feng shui the house, hang a picture, whittle a spoon, remove a splinter or a tick, hang the washing, fix a shoelace, sew your trousers or replace a button, referee a footy match, patch a dingy, make a chest seal, repair a tent/waterproof, splint a broken limb, make a drink, treat dehydration, light a bbq, chop a tree, catch a fish, snare a rabbit, treat hayfever, sort out a drink, have safe rumpy pumpy, make a catapult, make a tourniquet stop a nosebleed, repair electronics/electrics, celebrate a birthday or have a romantic bath, leave a note or write your memoirs, open a can, light your way, read small print, have a disco, fix a car remote and so on depending on how you pack it. the limits are what your imagination and improvisation skills can do with the contents you picked. if you lack those skills then maybe the outdoors life isn't for you.

I could say what the heck is a possibles pouch for except to get in the way of usefull stuff on your belt?.

having said that there a few commercial tins out there worth merit as they are mainly based on price over function.

besides that I dont smoke so consider the baccy and papers a waste of space better taken up with a brew kit

 

[crazydave]

condoms 2
hairnet
masonry nails
screw eyes
braided cord
dental floss
steel and brass wire
heavy duty and sewing needles including curved upholstery needle
safety pins
tweezers
sterets
small sachet antibiotic cream
zip ties
wire twists
puncture repair glue
plasters
compass
scalpel blade
half hacksaw blade sharpened to a knife edge
1m duct tape inside, 4 in ch patched outside
speedhook fishing kit
electrical tape
pencil
paper
key ring led light
waxed firepaper
tinder quik and cotton wool
flint or striker
rehydration tablets
vial of PP
puritabs
tin foil
wire saw
aspirin, codeine, pentazocaine, piriton
handle for tin
folding scissors
fresnel lens
instant tea and sugar for 1 brew

kept in a washing tablet bag so it can be emptied and then in a mini dry bag with a foil blanket and some extra cord. FAK in another pocket.

well packed

 

[rik_uk3]

besides that I dont smoke so consider the baccy and papers a waste of space better taken up with a brew kit

A brew kit I'll go with. These little survival tins are just a bit of fun, something to play with at home. In most parts of the UK you won't starve to death before your found etc,

Just carry your FAK and a bottle of water and your sorted really. I've hinted in the past about my opinion of survival tins, well now I'll be honest and open, IMO they are crap and a waste of time, plus the object of mirth on some forums Good grief, most time in the UK your not far from human contact or rescue, your mobile phone will do you more good than you action packed baccy tin and you should have enough kit on you to survive.

I'll get me coat

 

[crazydave]

the point is that here you can probably get away with out it but elsewhere its usefull as its one light thing which covers a lot of bases. personally I use them more indoors than out using the contents to fix or patch stuff when I'm not at home.

people mess up all the time and just because you dont feel the need to be prepared doesn't make such prep useless for others. especially as the majority do carry one in some form whether its all in a tin or distributed through the pockets. a well packed bag is one thing but you arent likely to go off with no trousers on.

bit like first aid kits - how often do you actually use more than a plaster or painkillers? so why bother with that then as you can ring for an ambulance if you mess up or just walk home dripping blood for a bit as it will stop eventually. should you carry a mini first aid book with it incase you're the one to be treated after that slip and fall off the track.

bushcrafters tend to wear green so they dont get noticed so much while destroying the local woodland and like to be out of the way so they dont get bothered. if you slip while foraging off the regular dog walkers routes or away from your camp it might be a while till you get found. walkers climbers and hikers in this time of year can be gone for week before they are found.

as to phones look how close to civilisation you were at the moot and how useless they were, they are also fragile and people kepe them too close to hand for them to be properly protected. never trust in anything not even your own skills.

accidents happen - suppose you take the kids out into the woods to play and your the one injured. you've taken them to a new area so they dont know the way back. you've got great skills so only carry a flint and steel along with your bushy knife but you're unconscious. sometimes the tin is not just for you to use.

where's that story on those american kids who got lost in the woods but found a body with survival kit in its rucsack and used that to keep themselves going?

 

[sapling]

Taking on board what some of the folks here have said, not aimed at anyone in particular, I feel the need to share some thoughts.
People who believe that a mobile phone will be better to carry than a few well thought out items wheter in a tin or not, are in my opinion, not familiar with the large areas of (in my case) Scotland.
Parts of the west coast from my experience do not get any coverage from any network. Given the remote nature of such places, even relying on someone finding you in a situation may take a long time, particularly at this time of year. Im talking weeks in some places especially if dressed in olive drab!
Something as basic as a survival bag or foil blanket can make the difference.
Much more useful than a phone IMO.

 

[rik_uk3]

Sapling, if I was up in Scotland I would take survival gear with me, but not housed in a baccy tin, not enough room for what I think I would need.

As to the moot, stand by the toilet and you get a great mobile signal, I was having a 'sit down' when my phone went off, frightened the crap out of me

 

[forrestdweller]

Taking on board what some of the folks here have said, not aimed at anyone in particular, I feel the need to share some thoughts.
People who believe that a mobile phone will be better to carry than a few well thought out items wheter in a tin or not, are in my opinion, not familiar with the large areas of (in my case) Scotland.
Parts of the west coast from my experience do not get any coverage from any network. Given the remote nature of such places, even relying on someone finding you in a situation may take a long time, particularly at this time of year. Im talking weeks in some places especially if dressed in olive drab!
Something as basic as a survival bag or foil blanket can make the difference.
Much more useful than a phone IMO.

well spoken. besides my dislike for those newfangled toys: i've been often enough in situations where there was no reception at all- and that was along major highways. so what are you doing then or when they break down???

 

[Martyn]

Taking on board what some of the folks here have said, not aimed at anyone in particular, I feel the need to share some thoughts.
People who believe that a mobile phone will be better to carry than a few well thought out items wheter in a tin or not, are in my opinion, not familiar with the large areas of (in my case) Scotland.
Parts of the west coast from my experience do not get any coverage from any network. Given the remote nature of such places, even relying on someone finding you in a situation may take a long time, particularly at this time of year. Im talking weeks in some places especially if dressed in olive drab!
Something as basic as a survival bag or foil blanket can make the difference.
Much more useful than a phone IMO.

I wonder how many people a year go missing in the UK for more than 72 hours?

 

[Martyn]

gps wise - they arent accurate enough - a bloke fell off snowdon (I think but could have been ben nevis) because he couldnt accurately plot his route down by following the little arrow on the screen. you may as well take a tomtom with you and you know that they are often 50m plus out. plus they arent perfect and can be whited out by low cloud or high valleys. military spec ones are accurate to 6 feet or better the civvy ones you're lucky if it gets you withing your 6 fig grid. )

Forgive my ignorance, but how do you get an accurate compass bearing when the visibility is so low that you are at risk of falling off the edge of your trail? I can use a map and compass, admittedly, my skills in that area are basic, but I fail to see how dead reckoning your position in low visibility or at night, can be any more accurate than using a GPS? If you cant see your landmarks, then it's little more than educated guesswork, right?

Or am I missing something?

I remember when I was in the cadets we were on a map reading exercise and even some of the officers were getting turned around up on the moors. The low visibility and featureless terrain made it a difficult exercise. We knew where we hand been dropped off, but from there on, it was pretty much dead reckoning. That was the point obviously, but it really did drive home how hard it can be without good, visible landmarks. Altimeters can make navigating off contours possible, but on fairly flat moorland, they would of been little use. A GPS on the other hand, could be a lifesaver.

 

[sapling]

I would suggest that the relatively low numbers of people who go missing for more than 72hrs is due to other factors than a mobile phone.
Leaving behind a detailed routecard and telling a reliable person where you are going and when you expect to be back is a better system in my opinion than relying on a mobile to raise the alarm.
And when you are cold wet and hungry even 72hrs is a long miserable time!

 

[crazydave]

Forgive my ignorance, but how do you get an accurate compass bearing when the visibility is so low that you are at risk of falling off the edge of your trail? I can use a map and compass, admittedly, my skills in that area are basic, but I fail to see how dead reckoning your position in low visibility or at night, can be any more accurate than using a GPS? If you cant see your landmarks, then it's little more than educated guesswork, right?

Or am I missing something?

I remember when I was in the cadets we were on a map reading exercise and even some of the officers were getting turned around up on the moors. The low visibility and featureless terrain made it a difficult exercise. We knew where we hand been dropped off, but from there on, it was pretty much dead reckoning. That was the point obviously, but it really did drive home how hard it can be without good, visible landmarks. Altimeters can make navigating off contours possible, but on fairly flat moorland, they would of been little use. A GPS on the other hand, could be a lifesaver.

you cant but knowing that what is in your hand is imperfect then you are less likely to rush it and more likely to hunker down. when in doubt, STOP get comfy and make a brew whle you decide on the next course of action. if your mapwork is based on an educated guess then you know its imperfect so you take more care. I know people who rely on gps but cant follow a map no matter how often they get taught. they know which way the gps is telling them to go but not why. people follow without thinking, most cars I see on the motorway have satnav but they probably only need it for the last half an hour of their journey. I've been riding through london a lot lately and the satnavs are much in evidence as well which means people arent paying attention to their surroundings as much so havent picked up on points of interest which could be used to navigate their way in future. mankind is lazy and will take the easy way out. if the little machine that beeps says its 3.2 miles and should take an hour then people will push to that regardless of what the weather is doing. similar on the marshalling end its more dangerous to push the kids or tell them off for being late. better they are found safe and well in a static location albeit a lost one than they carry on wandering into strange areas compounding the errors. if you have packed properly then a cold night on the hills is preferable to a bouncy trip down to the valleys.

another thing regards dead reckoning is veering off. if you know your compass is 6 degrees out for example then you know which side your error is likely to be on so you know you will be to the left of the gate so when you hit the wall you go right to find it. if a gps is trying to get a fix off two satellites then your error could be in either direction. I've just been looking over the specs for mobile map software like google mobile and they claim even with a gps enabled phone ony to be accurate to 50m. I havent tried the viewranger setup but thats likely to become the standard as gps phones become more common. even if you can get a very accurate gps fix it still wont do you any good as the map wont be accurate enough to take advantage of it.

with tins though even if you decide that all you need is a first aid kit and a brew kit in there that would still have to include a fire making kit and something to boil water in so it would by definition become a survival tin. remembered lofty taking lenny into the amazon and he said 'now then lenny here's a usefull little tin with bits and bobs in to make life a little more comfortable in the jungle' - or something like that. first use the tin got was for a plaster, the second was for some fishing kit.

fortunately 99% bushcrafters dont travel so far from their cars cos of all the posh kit they carry so arent likely to need either a gps or a survival tin. the other 0.1% are generally clued up enough and know their areas well

the main thing I do notice is the desire for bushcrafting to be something superduper special and in no way related to anything else, the hostility to survival tins seems to be linked to the hostility towards survival as a subject which crops up continuously and not the need for a usefull bit of just in case kit, maybe a thread should be started as to what a bushcraft tin should contain? as I would find that interesting. sorry make that possibles pouch. cant say I've even had a cup of tea made in leather drawstring bag but I'm open to new experiences

 

[Dark Horse Dave]

fortunately 99% bushcrafters dont travel so far from their cars cos of all the posh kit they carry so arent likely to need either a gps or a survival tin. the other 0.1% are generally clued up enough and know their areas well

the main thing I do notice is the desire for bushcrafting to be something superduper special and in no way related to anything else, the hostility to survival tins seems to be linked to the hostility towards survival as a subject which crops up continuously and not the need for a usefull bit of just in case kit, maybe a thread should be started as to what a bushcraft tin should contain? as I would find that interesting. sorry make that possibles pouch. cant say I've even had a cup of tea made in leather drawstring bag but I'm open to new experiences

I've no axe to grind either way as it were, but this made me laugh!

 

[rik_uk3]

I wonder how many people a year go missing in the UK for more than 72 hours?

Not a lot, and I doubt your baccy tin would improve your lot As I said to Sapling up in Scotland your would need more than a tin perhaps, a day sack with sleeping bag, plastic survival bag or bivvy bag, stove, pan , water, brew kit, food plus what was on you. Relying on that type of setup would seem far wiser than your little tin I would have thought?

 

[Dougster]

condoms 2
well packed

Ah, the old Uni survival kit.....

 

[Martyn]

you cant but knowing that what is in your hand is imperfect then you are less likely to rush it and more likely to hunker down. when in doubt, STOP get comfy and make a brew whle you decide on the next course of action. if your mapwork is based on an educated guess then you know its imperfect so you take more care. I know people who rely on gps but cant follow a map no matter how often they get taught. they know which way the gps is telling them to go but not why.

What you are talking about there though, is the difference between relying on a map & compass and relying on a GPS. I dont think anyone ever suggests relying on a gps, but to use one as a self check, a backup. You navigate with a map & compass to where you think you should be and then if you have any doubt at all, check with the gps. If the gps agrees with you, good to go. If it doesnt, time to sit down and work out which is wrong (chances are, it'll be you). I have a GPSmap60cs and it's accuracy is superb, usually to below 10m. Occasionally if under trees it can drop to 30m, but more often than not it's bob on. I've navigated to trig points and found it to be accurate to within a meter. This is not unusual - a lot of people use them for geocaching, where the object is to hunt down a small object, hidden somewhere. If they were as inaccurate as you suggest, nobody would ever find anything. If you can use a gps to reliably locate something the size of a matchbox hidden under a rock, you wont have any difficulty finding a gate.

Perhaps your experience with them was from when they used to have built in error for commercial units? Now that "deliberate error" has been turned off, the civi units are every bit as accurate as the military units, often more so, especially if it has one of the newer, multi-channel SiRFstarIII chipsets.

If my "educated guess" location was different to my GPS location, I'd move till the GPS said I was where I should be. Relying on a gps is bad because they run on batteries and can break, but it has nothing to do with accuracy. They are far, far more accurate than people. If a GPS says I am at position X, then I am at position X, no question, no doubt.

If there is a negative to them, it's that they are so good, so accurate and so reliable, that there is a huge temptation to rely on them alone. But that's not a reason not to use one at all.

 

[Martyn]

Not a lot, and I doubt your baccy tin would improve your lot As I said to Sapling up in Scotland your would need more than a tin perhaps, a day sack with sleeping bag, plastic survival bag or bivvy bag, stove, pan , water, brew kit, food plus what was on you. Relying on that type of setup would seem far wiser than your little tin I would have thought?

I would of thought so too. If you are somewhere in the UK where it is actually possible to get lost for 3 days and all you have is your baccy tin, you are woefully ill-equipped. If you arent somewhere you can get lost or stuck, then a mobile phone and a credit card will do nicely.

Baccy tin survival tine evolved from E&E kits during the war. They couldn't carry a day pack with a bivvi and sleeping bag, so they made do with a bacci tin for "covert" reasons. There is no such need to be "covert" about your kit in the UK.

In fact a mobile phone, credit card and gps will cover your backside in 99.9999% of situations. A bacci tin survival kit will cover your backside in ...well nothing really. They are a fun fantasy thing.

That said, I think the doug ritter kit is useful, simply because it is so small and light you can keep it with you 100% of the time, so on the offchance you get blindsided with some wierd situation you couldn't of forseen, you have got something a bit useful. Firestarter, whistle and signal mirror. But if you always carry those in yer pocket anyway, no need. The fishing kit is commical. Yeah right, you are so stranded in the UK that fishing from a pond is going to keep you alive till rescue comes.

 

[He' s left the building]

The problem with making a 'baccy-tin survival-kit' is that you have started off by specifying the container, thereafter limiting your choices as to the content.

Surely it is best to select your items first and then decide on a suitable container?

One reason often quoted for the use of the baccy tin is the ability to boil water for a brew, has anyone here ever made themselves a decent brew in a baccy tin???

 

[Glen]

Baccy tin survival tine evolved from E&E kits during the war. They couldn't carry a day pack with a bivvi and sleeping bag, so they made do with a bacci tin for "covert" reasons. There is no such need to be "covert" about your kit in the UK.

Firestarter, whistle and signal mirror.

Baccy tins were desinged to be about as big as someone would comfortably carry in their pockets as an everyday item.

I try and avoid calling and thinking of it as a survival tin but as a mini backup kit, though I don't forget to take my survival mobile So mine contains mostly smaller versions of things that I might break or loose, mini compass/whistle/LED combo thing, mini firesfteel blank, cigarette sized lighter, trick relighting birthday candle, couple of strike anywhere matches in a sealed straw, Opinel, etc Polish the tin lid and bottom, cover them in layer of cling film to keep clean, and they'll work as a signal mirror.

If you want mobile batteries to last longer than a couple of days then turn the mobile off until you want/need to use it. If your mobile has a camera flash that's a good for signalling after dark too.

For activities it the UK, barring sudden medical emergencies such a allergic reactions, self poisoning and cut arteries, these things need to be covered with your FAK anyway. Which leaves the main thing to consider survival wise as "Exposure" There's very few other things that will be get anyone in the period of a couple of hours to a couple of days, which is going to be the timescale that you can do much about.

Your first emergency survival kit is the clothes your wearing, beyond that it's stuff you might take to make yourself more comfortable or be found quicker.

A modified[1] space blanket ( mines in the FAK ) a couple of tea lights, firesource and some glucose tablets are probably all that would be needed in most UK situations, some of the higher moutain climbing and canoe trips excepted but those should be planned for individually anyway.

[1] 3/4 way down this page http://therangerdigest.com/Tips Tricks/28 cold weather tips/28 cold weather tips.htm

 

[rik_uk3]

There is a lot of talk here about the 'the best daysack' type of thing, I have always thought of my daysack or indeed rucksack as my 'survival kit.

The teacher at School who took us so often up to Snowdonia drummed into us that you must carry some kit with you, even on a day hike, whistle, torch, map, compass, spare clothes, plastic bivvy bag (this was 40 years ago), food of some sort etc, and perhaps this kind of 'conditioning' has remained with me and why I'm so sceptical of these small survival kits.