Given the last couple of winters its worth carrying a few bits in the boot of your car if only a couple of fleece/foil blankets, couple of litres of water and a few chocolate bars and make sure your fuel tank is full.
'Survival Tin' romance....
- Thread starter 3bears
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i still carry one...the contents have been modifed for me over the years but yes i still carry a survival tin and have used the contents on a regular basis...also carry a good first aid kit with a few FFD aswell ...the way i look at it is just because i have'nt used it in an emergency in the past does't mean i'm not going to have to use it in an emergeny in the future...and i still enjoy the time i take to replace items and modify it for me to use in different environs...oh and i still carry a survival pouch aswell, as per Lofty Wiseman..for me vince g. the British SAS survial theme of carrying a tin and pouch has work for me over the past 20 odd years...vince g. 11B Inf....
So the book we all know and love in print since 1986 is an unabridged SAS training manual.. Or is it based heavily on the SAS training manual with all of the secret squirrel stuff removed??
The Collins Gem version being further Abridged for reasons of space etc??I understand that completely. And given the fact that I carry an urban "survival kit," I don't see why it wouldn't. The main components of my urban kit are a sewing kit, antacids, chapstick and a small flashlight for when the building loses power.
I didn't think we'd strayed onto Urban kits per se but I agree a few bit n bobs in your briefcase or daysack often make sense. Is that a 'survival' kit as such or is it just useful stuff to have... A bit like Richards comment on taking stuff in the car with you when winter driving.
I didn't think anyone was really telling anyone not to take a kit even if the kit was really aimed at special forces soldiers with a high degree of training for use in an E+E environment. Or was a commercial version of such a kit made from reasonably lacklustre contents...I suppose Caveat Emptor applies.
What the OP does along with reasonable discourse on the subject, is to give an opinion that such a kit for most of us who are not part of the UKSF is a bit of fun and possibly of limited use.. Buying a SAS tin or making one up and chucking it in your pack or top pocket of your jacket is not an answer to all survival needs.
If I was relying on one for SERE purposes then somethings gone wrong in a big way and yep I'd be glad of it and ANY other help I could get.
However I'd venture to suggest for that vast majority of the BCUK collective SERE is not realistically going to happen to them..
A more useful kit for the average person in the UK might be:
Orange Poly Survival Bag (or blizzard bag)
High Energy food ( leppin gel , Kendal Mint cake, glucose tablets)
Torch
Foil blanket
Thin beanie or balaclava and some thin gloves.
Chuck the above in a waterproof stuff sack in the bottom of your daysack or if your really cautious a bum bag ( fanny pack) or that product of the tacticool marketing machine a 'response pack'.
Couple the above with some clear intentions to someone before your trip and My experience is you have a good chance of surviving say benightment on open moorland or the UK mountains or in lowland woods or forests. It would be a pretty nasty night but you'd be alive and able to function the next day. Adding a mobile phone gives an additional resource to draw on subject to coverage etc.
While I have affection for a SAS tin and deeply respect the men who created the concept. Condoms, fishing kit, scalpels, wiresaws, button compases etc... Are not going to keep the wind off or rain out and hypothermia realistically at bay on say the middle of Northern Dartmoor. Most survival episodes in the UK are not going to see you snaring rabbits for food etc.
No one is berating anyone. Carry what you will and clearly seperate fantasy from reality and you'll be fine..
Well, here's reality for you. Some years back I was squirrel hunting in a 80 acre woodlot that I've hunted many times before. It's a 10 minute drive from my home. I went out in the late afternoon and was off in the far corner before I realized how late it was getting. Before I knew it, it was pitch black in the woods and somehow I was turned around. Fortunately I keep a minikit in my hunting vest. Inside was a button compass and a small microlight. Was I in a survival situation? No. I would have eventually found my way out. But I had been heading in the wrong direction and that little compass got me back to my vehicle in 20 minutes. Which was much better than puttering around aimlessly in the dark in 80 acres of dense woods. What you call fantasy I call using your imagination and foresight. Also in my minikit is a firesteel and tinder. In the back of the vest is an all weather space blanket. If I did have to spend the night, I would have had fire and cover. Now I know I could have used my bushcraft skills to build a debri hut but that was not part of my "fantasy" for that trip.
I suppose it all comes down to the type of terrain you're in gents, here in the UK, especially in Wales there is very little comparable woodland. I've found in (north) Wales its 95% purposely planted coniferous woodland- here the most grief you'd likely get is being stuck out on a hillside in Snowdonia, where things like snare wire is useless but a signalling mirror would be great...
the minikits/tins are a bit of an all rounder I think, but here in the UK are unsuited due to the population density, road infrastructure, and general state of the arablely cultivated topography of the country. We are in all reality, a land without true wilderness (bar the highlands, and Hull) so fishing kits (in addition to being illegal to use a handline ), snare wire, puri tabs ect aren't really needed over here. lets face facts, Dartmoor isn't the Serengeti, the Forest of Dean isn't the Amazon, and Rhyl Beach isn't the Northern Territory (its a LOT more dangerous lol...)
maybe the survival tins should be thought more of as a 'handy to have' kit, rather than an 'OMG, I'm going to die unless I carry a condom and scalpel blades...' - like Hoodoo said, the button compass and microlight got him back to his car quickly, they were handy, but it was hardly a life or death situation ( err I am right eh Hoodoo?)
as well as this I've found that a lot, in fact most of the people I've met who carry one of the 'bought' survival kits are what I call a 'Lake Districter'- folk who get all togged out in their megabucks Northface Jackets to go for a walk around lake Windermere - and have no clue as to what's inside the tins, or even what to do with them
am I going mad or is this just me gents?
the minikits/tins are a bit of an all rounder I think, but here in the UK are unsuited due to the population density, road infrastructure, and general state of the arablely cultivated topography of the country. We are in all reality, a land without true wilderness (bar the highlands, and Hull
) so fishing kits (in addition to being illegal to use a handline ), snare wire, puri tabs ect aren't really needed over here. lets face facts, Dartmoor isn't the Serengeti, the Forest of Dean isn't the Amazon, and Rhyl Beach isn't the Northern Territory (its a LOT more dangerous lol...)maybe the survival tins should be thought more of as a 'handy to have' kit, rather than an 'OMG, I'm going to die unless I carry a condom and scalpel blades...' - like Hoodoo said, the button compass and microlight got him back to his car quickly, they were handy, but it was hardly a life or death situation ( err I am right eh Hoodoo?
)as well as this I've found that a lot, in fact most of the people I've met who carry one of the 'bought' survival kits are what I call a 'Lake Districter'- folk who get all togged out in their megabucks Northface Jackets to go for a walk around lake Windermere - and have no clue as to what's inside the tins, or even what to do with them
am I going mad or is this just me gents?
I've not heard this before. I don't believe it is currently in use (officially anyhow). It's an interesting book, and an established classic. I think i've heard that it's been bought up to date recently too- if so, that's no bad thing. The concept of a survival pouch (in addition to the tin) is not one used by the military, but most likely an attempt by Lofty to compartmentalise (for the civilian audience) the type of useful kit that would be carried within the webbing of a soldier (shelter, cordage, knife, stove etc).
maybe the survival tins should be thought more of as a 'handy to have' kit, rather than an 'OMG, I'm going to die unless I carry a condom and scalpel blades...' - like Hoodoo said, the button compass and microlight got him back to his car quickly, they were handy, but it was hardly a life or death situation ( err I am right eh Hoodoo?
No, it wasn't a survival situation. But I could create a fantasy where it could have been. Make it later in the hunting season, throw in freezing temperatures and a trip causing a broken ankle. Or how about a mild heart attack? Now you could be hours away from hyopthermia. Rubbing sticks together for a fire doesn't appeal to me in this situation. Is it really a fantasy? Unfortunately, no. Every year we lose folks in the woods here due to exposure. Hunters falling out of treestands are a common example. If the fall doesn't kill them, the night in the woods can.
A good friend of mine was deer hunting up in the UP of Michigan in the dead of winter. He had been sitting in his treestand all evening. Snow was falling and the temperature was heading into single digits. When he climbed down from his stand, he was stiff and sore from hours of sitting, but he was also starting to chill. His truck was 3/4 mile away, due west. Given his condition, it was not surprising that he was also disoriented, even though he has a superb sense of direction and knew the woods well. Off he went, but in the wrong direction. The trail back was obliterated by snowfall. The snow was really falling now and the temperature continued to drop. He THOUGHT he knew where he was going but suddenly realized that something wasn't right. Fortunately he had his GPS and fired it up. He had been to that treestand many times before so he was shocked to discover he was heading deeper and deeper into the forest. He made a U-turn and fortunately made it back to his truck in good shape. A button compass would have taken him to his truck just as well.
And he was lucky the batteries weren't dead....
Now maybe you folks don't have woods big enough to get lost in but I rather doubt that. And doesn't anyone go fishing on those waters surrounding your island? If I did, I know I'd have a mirror and whistle in my kit. I always do anyway. The mirror always comes in handy for trimming those hairs from my moustache that always want to tickle my nose.
The mirror always comes in handy for trimming those hairs from my moustache that always want to tickle my nose.
Lmao... I'd be a liar if I said I hadn't done this myself...
So the book we all know and love in print since 1986 is an unabridged SAS training manual.. Or is it based heavily on the SAS training manual with all of the secret squirrel stuff removed??
Not quite, it is the SAS survival manual, not the E&E manual, which is not the survival they were taught by Lofty, (although he probably did that as well at some point) the secret squirrel stuff is another story that doesn't leave the troopers.
If you remember the series Ray Mears did a few years back he did a bit with the RAF Aircrews, usually combat pilots and navigators, then they stopped filming because the secrecy of the stuff they were doing.
I think the book covers the written stuff, the clever bit is in the practice, IIRC he said it was a minimum of two weeks in very unfriendly and very realistic conditions of being in survival conditions, probably behind enemy lines.
Hoodoo, nobody has starved to death or died of dehydration out camping in the UK for ????????? years, don't happen, we are a tiny island compared to the USA. Why anyone in the UK carries a tin or pouch with fishing hooks in is beyond me, just no need. Same as a condom for carrying water (there is a better use for one). Parts of Scotland get remote and have very severe weather as do parts of Wales and the Lake district but what you need there are waterproof and warm clothes, poly bag, mobile phone and some high energy food such as chocolate or mint cake to get by on while you await rescue which will come and save you unless you freeze to death. Should freezing kill you your survival tin will have been as much use as a chocolate fire guard.
Out in the wilderness of the USA/Canada/New Zealand etc fine, take your tin and more along and it will have a benefit but for the vast majority of the UK a baccy tin is best used for baccy and papers or if you don't smoke to keep a pack of playing cards dry while you listen out for the SAR chopper or the moans of a Mountain Rescue team looking for another *()^&*^^&%$ person who got lost or injured often due to poor equipment and or training, its a fun item, an indulgence, a personal folly if you like and not a real life saver.
First paragraph - not correct at all, did you make it up?
Second paragraph - yes, filming stopped, the means of communicating with SAR aircraft clearly must remain restricted.
The 'Survival Tin' was an invention for a course, not an operational item.
Nah, I heard it from Lofty about 4 years ago whilst with SWMBO, sat in his semi-fitted kitchen having a brew with him and having a chat about his book. I think we had Digestives as well, or was it custard creams.
Nah, I heard it from Lofty about 4 years ago whilst with SWMBO, sat in his semi-fitted kitchen having a brew with him and having a chat about his book. I think we had Digestives as well, or was it custard creams.
Funny , Yet True!
Nope, they were straight from the packets, he kept them in a different room as most of his store cupboards had been taken out for the new kitchen to go in, so they were out the back of the garage.
why do the discussions regarding any form of military aspect to outdoors provoke so much debate, and why do people get so upset about it all. the military spend a great deal of time outdoors, the scouts also spend time outdoors, but nothing discussed from a scouting aspect generates this kind of split opinion. whether its goretex or other clothing, belt kits or daypacks, bergens or expedeition sacks, para boots or walking boots. it does make me wonder, if its a perceived manly thing, i use loads of military stuff but am in no way pretending to be something i'm not.
the mention of dpm, rat packs or smocks seems to get this 'i must belittle your opinion because maybe deep down i'm worried you are either more manly than me or could be perceived to be more manly than me by others, so therefore will dismiss everything you say as total rubbish and promote myself as superior vbia a non-military aspect' type of response.
who was it who said 'all men think less of themselves for not having been a soldier'?
to everyone, you are allowed to use a survival tin, or dpm's, or a pair of levi's and a man bag with tupperware, you live in a civilized world where freedom to do your own thing has been fought for by a great many not here to do so themselves. those that dispute your freedom to do so are entitled to do so by virtue of the above also. but for gods sake enjoy yourselves in what little wilderness we have left.
at the end of the day, no learning is wasted, i'd go and do 3 days with a survival tin for sh*ts and giggles, and be glad i can play at it rather than having to do it for real in some god forsaken land where i'm hunted by a ruthless enemy.
i just feel a very innocent appraisel by the orignal poster of a common place item of military/survivalist/bushcraft lore has been treated in some cases very negatively. (also i felt johnboy as always was very astute, polite and to the point even tho his point of view was different)i believe they have their place, and may be more useful to certain people at certain times, but where's the harm? eh? lets all get along!
the mention of dpm, rat packs or smocks seems to get this 'i must belittle your opinion because maybe deep down i'm worried you are either more manly than me or could be perceived to be more manly than me by others, so therefore will dismiss everything you say as total rubbish and promote myself as superior vbia a non-military aspect' type of response.
who was it who said 'all men think less of themselves for not having been a soldier'?
to everyone, you are allowed to use a survival tin, or dpm's, or a pair of levi's and a man bag with tupperware, you live in a civilized world where freedom to do your own thing has been fought for by a great many not here to do so themselves. those that dispute your freedom to do so are entitled to do so by virtue of the above also. but for gods sake enjoy yourselves in what little wilderness we have left.
at the end of the day, no learning is wasted, i'd go and do 3 days with a survival tin for sh*ts and giggles, and be glad i can play at it rather than having to do it for real in some god forsaken land where i'm hunted by a ruthless enemy.
i just feel a very innocent appraisel by the orignal poster of a common place item of military/survivalist/bushcraft lore has been treated in some cases very negatively. (also i felt johnboy as always was very astute, polite and to the point even tho his point of view was different)i believe they have their place, and may be more useful to certain people at certain times, but where's the harm? eh? lets all get along!
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