Stop and search

[StJon]

On last nights Scottish news there was a report that on Friday night police mounted a stop and search with metal detectors at Glasgow Central Station looking specifically for knifes. I feel I have strong feelings over this this, and feel it is a misguided show of strength to a public who are demanding action over escalating knife crime. Firstly, did this action stop any knife crime in the city on Friday night? Secondly, wouldn't the knife carriers just use mobile phones/internet to tell others that the Police were there, and get of a stop earlier or use the bus? I like others want to stop knife crime but feel this just pays lip service to the real problems.
Rant over,
jon

 

[andyn]

There was me thinking this was a bushcraft forum, not a soap box for people to moan about the way the police do there jobs.......

 

[widu13]

They have to make a start somewhere. Advertised or not, the word would soon get around anyway. Little and often is the answer. If someone doesn't like it, then lobby their MP that's why they're there- they work for US (not the USA despite what some sceptics think!!).

 

[w00dsmoke]

Jon, I agree with you. After being under investigation from the police for ordering a rescue knife from a canoe shop which was posted to the wrong address, I feel the police while attempting to uphold the law, are trying to sway public/political opinion by visibly showing that they are doing something. Much of what they do is largely invisible and not in the public eye so they need to be seen to be doing something hence the stop n search in Central Station.

I spoke at length with my community cop who stated that certain areas are identified, whereby they will stop and search ANYONE on sight (particulalry youths) as an act of prevention. This is more of a deterent I feel, as it's just not a one off stop and search publicity stunt.

The thing that bothers me, is that I always have at least two knives in the car; a small locking opinel for cutting seat belts in an accident and a larger fixed blade in the boot ( as part of my general outdoor/fishing kit kept in the boot), both are used for road kill but technically I don't have good reason because:

a/ the car is a public space and should only be used for the transport to and from any activity if I have a knife in it.
b/ the opinel is a locking knife and not a recognised rescue knife which would be okay to have in the car for good reason.

whether I get arrested or not would entirley be up to the investigating officers interpretation of the law (subjective), or whether he had a bad day or not. Common sense would indicate I have good reason for both, but the law would indicate otherwise.

It's crazy and it makes my blood boil.

Anyone (over 18) could go into ASDA and buy a carving knife for less than £5 and as long as I carried it anywhere on the day of purchase with a receipt, I'd have good reason to have it and be covered in law-(even in a pub)

 

[andy_e]

There was me thinking this was a bushcraft forum, not a soap box for people to moan about the way the police do there jobs.......

I think it's very relevant. If I take a knife in my rucksack by public transport, to Bushmoot for example, I am not going to be pleased when my guilt of a crime is assumed rather than my innocence. If you have been paying attention, new legislation is afoot to make carrying a knife in a public place an offence - as far as I can tell this removes the "good cause clause".

 

[Mikey P]

Whilst there are exceptions to the rule, the majority of time the Police are not going to give you a shed-load of grief if you are: not wearing a knife on your belt or round your neck (duh!); carrying other kit that shows you are off to do an activity where a knife might be required (rucksack, tent, outdoor kit, etc); the knife is in the bottom of your rucksack, packed away and not quickly accessible; not in jeans, t-shirt and daps and on the way to the pub; not stinking of alcohol; not presenting a 'barrack-room lawyer' attitude when stopped and questioned, etc.

Once you get to your chosen bushcraft site, be careful around non-bushcrafting members of the public, who don't see law-abiding bushcraft enthusiasts: they see a potential nutter with a knife/axe. It's all about common sense.

I know there are stories of people being stopped and arrested for what we would consider very minor issues and over-zealous enforcement but...the bottom line is that the police are here to protect us (I believe), there is a lot of knife crime, and we need to have a pragmatic attitude.

There are frequent posts on this site complaining about not being able to openly carry knives, the law, 'why can't I go to the pub with an axe', etc, and I'm amazed at some of the things people come out with with regard to 'human rights' and 'everyone had a penknife in the 50s'. Would you say the same about guns? Actually, some of you probably would...

Sorry - you need to get a grip. Welcome to the UK in 2008. Carrying an edged-tool (screwdriver, chisel, knife, axe, billhook, etc) at an inappropriate time and in an inappropriate place is going to get you noticed. You have to engage brain and think about what you're doing and what is appropriate to the situation you're in - isn't that what bushcraft is all about, anyway?

By the way, if you want a rescue knife for the car, don't take your Alan Wood, get something with a covered blade, designed for cutting seatbelts - these cannot be used for stabbing or slashing and can strap to the seatbelt itself.

See: http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=7

These are excellent for cutting military webbing straps, rope, cord, clothing, etc, and one similar to this sits in my military trauma pack and one sits in the car first aid kit.

 

[verloc]

I think this is a very important topic.

Knife crime and mandatory sentences are wonderful buzz words for politicians and the reactionary media to jump on at the moment, but the case remains that the law we have is sufficient and even with mandatory sentences it's not going to automatically make people stop carrying items that can be used as weapons.

Screwdrivers for instance stab very well (anyone that's done an oil change on a motor knows that), hammers can create a lot of damage (but still form part of a child's carpentry set - available from all good toyshops), bic chuckable razors contain rather sharp little blades but we cant stop a spotty yoof from removing his bum fluff.

At the end of the day it's not the knife it's the person wielding it. And this law does naff all to change that or educate/change peoples levels of social responsibility.

/end rant - more coffee - more work

 

[Tadpole]

If you have been paying attention, new legislation is afoot to make carrying a knife in a public place an offence - as far as I can tell this removes the "good cause clause".

What new legislation?
As far as I can tell from reading the acts related to knives . Nothing much has changed in the last two years since the Violent Crime Reduction Act2006 made it illegal to have any sharply pointed or bladed instrument in your possession, in a public place without good reason or lawful authority. (as laid out in The Criminal Justice Act 1988,) as far as i can tell , the sentence has doubled and children under 16 can not buy fix bladed knives, though they can carry and buy legal folders.
So what is new

 

[Toddy]

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31657&highlight=legislation
This is the stuff that's being considered in Scotland; at this rate we may have the right to roam but the right to carry no fuctional tools

The train stations have been a bit of a no-go for carrying tools for a while, and camping stuff only if secured in the bottom of the pack. I know of someone who was asked to give his knife and axe to the guard and it would be returned when he got to Fort William.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[andy_e]

What new legislation?
As far as I can tell from reading the acts related to knives . Nothing much has changed in the last two years since the Violent Crime Reduction Act2006 made it illegal to have any sharply pointed or bladed instrument in your possession, in a public place without good reason or lawful authority. (as laid out in The Criminal Justice Act 1988,) as far as i can tell , the sentence has doubled and children under 16 can not buy fix bladed knives, though they can carry and buy legal folders.
So what is new

Nothing has changed yet, but there has been talk recently of introducing legislation to make it a crime to simply carry a knife in public i.e. making the assumption that there is no good reason to have one on your person, around the same time there was at least one serious call to ban the sale of chef's knives too as they get used the most in criminal activity. My hope is that neither of these knee-jerk reactions come to pass especially in light of the media's increased attention on the subject.

Edit: Thanks for the reference Toddy.

 

[Tadpole]

So I guess that is a “there is no new legislation then” Just some politico beating their gums and tossing out disposable sound bites. Sentencing is down to judges, so unless there is a change to ‘the law’, all the proposal coming up from the UK government mean nothing. The Judges will do as the law allow, no more or less.

 

[andy_e]

As I said it's afoot, but nothing for you to worry about yet Tadpole, then again we can still buy samurai swords up here

 

[Tadpole]

As I said it's afoot, but nothing for you to worry about yet Tadpole, then again we can still buy samurai swords up here

I do worry so, but I worry less about what we see the politicians doing, and more about what they do, without telling us.

I too agree with Mr Franklin, in that “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

I am also a fan of Buddhist tale of Chicken Little, and the falling sky. In that those who whip people into hysteria, will gather quite a following. A fact that some may use to their own end. It is a relatively simple way to manipulate people for their own benefit, all in the name of passing on the news/educating the people.

 

[andy_e]

I do worry so, but I worry less about what we see the politicians doing, and more about what they do, without telling us.

I too agree with Mr Franklin, in that “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

I am also a fan of Buddhist tale of Chicken Little, and the falling sky. In that those who whip people into hysteria, will gather quite a following. A fact that some may use to their own end. It is a relatively simple way to manipulate people for their own benefit, all in the name of passing on the news/educating the people.

So true

 

[Wayland]

And another universal truth is that changing the law does not change the behaviour of people who set out to break the law.

It only restricts the rights of the honest and the law abiding.

I do actually worry about what this country is becoming.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I do worry so, but I worry less about what we see the politicians doing, and more about what they do, without telling us.

I too agree with Mr Franklin, in that “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

I am also a fan of Buddhist tale of Chicken Little, and the falling sky. In that those who whip people into hysteria, will gather quite a following. A fact that some may use to their own end. It is a relatively simple way to manipulate people for their own benefit, all in the name of passing on the news/educating the people.

I agree totally. Reminds me of the excellent film, "V for Vendetta".

 

[John Fenna]

And another universal truth is that changing the law does not change the behaviour of people who set out to break the law.

It only restricts the rights of the honest and the law abiding.

I do actually worry about what this country is becoming.

I do so agree!
We have plenty of laws that if enforced would be more effective than introducing more legislation!

 

[w00dsmoke]

I do so agree!
We have plenty of laws that if enforced would be more effective than introducing more legislation!

Hats off to you that man, now there is a bit of common sense based on experience.
You are so right on this one, if the police force had the officers and admin support to carry out their job more efficiently then we have more than enough legislation already to deal with the issue without adding more.

If we look at statistics, look at how many knife crimes are carried out by "minors" and look at the number referred to the childrens panel system (in Scotland) and look at what the panel do, you'll see how inneffective a deterent the legislation is for minors who have been caught. Now there's another can of worms... but off topic, my apologies.

Hit em hard with a zero tolerance approach and change cultural values/attitudes towards knife crime is the only way forward.

 

[Tadpole]

Hats off to you that man, now there is a bit of common sense based on experience.
You are so right on this one, if the police force had the officers and admin support to carry out their job more efficiently then we have more than enough legislation already to deal with the issue without adding more.

If we look at statistics, look at how many knife crimes are carried out by "minors" and look at the number referred to the childrens panel system (in Scotland) and look at what the panel do, you'll see how inneffective a deterent the legislation is for minors who have been caught. Now there's another can of worms... but off topic, my apologies.

Hit em hard with a zero tolerance approach and change cultural values/attitudes towards knife crime is the only way forward.

I think we don't need any more policemen, we just need the policemen on the streets. Not sat in an office somewhere filling out forms, not forms to do with the crime, or even forms relevent to the cases they are working on, just forms on which the government base their stat's on. if they the MP's want a papertrail, hire some temp, let the coppers get out and clear the street of scrots

to quote a Home Office report from approx 18 months ago "2,400 out of a record 143,000 [police] officers in England and Wales are out deterring criminals and reassuring the public". the rest were either doing paperwork, or rushing the chief constables uniform to the laundry.

 

[verloc]

Hit em hard with a zero tolerance approach and change cultural values/attitudes towards knife crime is the only way forward.

Well said.
(now off to play with new toys just been delivered)