Sleeping system for backpacking

[ValG]

Hi,

I have been doing some research re winter back packing. I no longer go backpacking as I take my trailer tent so may be a bit out dated. I am now trying to help my daughter who has just started her D of E awards. She will be doing a winter camp out in February and I have been trying to sort out a good sleeping system without too much expense. I have an original therma rest self inflating mattress from 1994 which would appear to still be serviceable. It weighs in at approx 800g. I found that this provides excellent thermal insulation but is still not quite comfortable enough for me as I sleep on my side and found I tended to get numb hips and shoulders. With this in mind I have bought a multi mat Campari mattress to provide more comfort. it is a three season and weighs in at approx 800g like the thermarest. I realise that air beds can be quite cold as they will assume the ambient air temperature. I have therefore bought a piece of fleece material that is used for mattress protectors and intend to put this on top of the air mattress to stop heat loss from the body into the air mattress and the thermarest underneath for insulation from the cold ground and extra comfort. To add these two pieces of kit would add approx 1100g. My question is is this a good idea. I have lain down on my living room floor on the fleece covered air mattress and it is very comfortable. Would you be prepared to carry this much extra weight for comfort. Is it expecting too much for my 14 year old daughter to carry. I have made some weight (and space) saving by investing in a down 500 sleeping bag which in it's waterproof cover weighs in at 1250g. I post this as I will not actually be using the kit but am trying to use my experience to aid my daughter and would appreciate any thoughts on what I have come up with.

Many Thanks
Val

 

[plastic-ninja]

3kg for a comfy nights sleep is fine for me but a 14 yr old?What about trying a space blanket on top of the air mattress?I have one with some elastic stuck on to hold it steady on my Pacific Outdoor mat and use a good down bag.I think she will feel the cold less than you think.Get her some good thermal base layers too so she can sleep in them if she's cold.Merino would be my preference because of its anti-odour characteristics.
You can show her how to shave weight on other items of kit too and on lightweight food.
Cheers , Simon

 

[ValG]

Thanks for your quick reply. The fleece part only weighs 300g. I did consider a space blanket but thought it might be noisey ie rustling when you move. You can probably enlighten me. She does have thermals although not merino they are lightweight skiing ones. She does feel the cold as she only used the thermarest on her last trip in Sep and said she was cold. However she still had her synthetic bag then. I think the down bag will be the biggest improvement. I just don't know if the extra weight of the air mattress is worth it. I think I will let her try it out in Feb as this will only be for one night so she won't have that much extra kit to carry. I was thinking more of her being as warm as possible so that she is not put off winter camping.

 

[plastic-ninja]

Space blankets aren't noisy once they've been packed and unpacked a few times.
I think you're right about the down bag ; I'd never part with mine now.I had to make a wedding cake to swap for it so it has extra value!
Good thermals to sleep in and socks in bed make a huge difference too.Also the best advice I ever got was always keep your sleeping clothes in a waterproof bag during the day , even if it means putting cold wet clothes back on in the morning.It's purgatory trying to sleep in wet clothes.!
I'd let her try the two mats together and separately and make her own decision.Chances are she's a lot lighter than you and won't compress the mat as much anyway so may only need the one.
Cheers , Simon

 

[ValG]

I'll keep the space blanket in mind as it would be a lot less bulky than the fleece. I like your point about socks as my daughter always complains of cold feet. I am so envious of her as when I was younger I couldn't afford a down sleeping bag and would have given my right arm for one! She doesn't realise how lucky she is as the kit is so much better these days than back in the 80s when I was backpacking. I can remember having to save up for my first "goretex" jacket and even then they were quite bulky and not like the super light ones you can get these days.

Many thanks for your input. I will have to let my daughter decide. You can only advise so much and 14 year olds think they know it all !!!!

 

[kiltedpict]

Another tip I used in Nepal was to fill a nalgene drinks bottle with hot water and put it in a large sock- it will warm the bag before she gets in and keep her toes cosy all night!

 

[rg598]

Before they came out with 4 season sleeping pads like the Thermarest NeoAir All Season, the standard way to insulate in winter was a regular Thermarest pad on top of a closed cell foam pad.

 

[PDA1]

An air mattress could be lethal in Winter, even with a fleece cover. At a minimum, get an insulated core inflatable such as the Big Agnes insul;ated air core. they tend to be heavy. Good insulation can be achieved at very low cost with a good closed cell foam mat - look at Highlander for some examples. They may not be as comfortable as an air matress, but will prevent hypothermia, which is much more important.

 

[PDA1]

regarding weight. A reasonably fit adolescent, within sensible BMI rating should not be carrying more than 25% of bodyweight as an absolute maximum.

 

[ValG]

I don't really understand your comment about an air mattress being lethal in winter. Used on it's own I would agree with you but the multimat camper air is rated at three seasons so I thought with the addition of some fleece this would be adequate. I have rethought taking the thermarest as well and would put a closed cell 4 season mat under the camper air. This combination would save some weight and I would have thought give enough insulation to be able to have the comfort of an air mattress as well

 

[Paul_B]

If you think about what will be happening in the air mattress you'll perhaps see why they are not advised in cold conditions. First off they are simply big airchambers blown up by the users lungs or a foot pump right? That could easily mean high humidity air inside, not good for insulation. That is not the worst aspect but the large chambers is. At the side closest ot the hot body (and remember down underneath you has very little insulation factor hence the need for a mat) the air in the mattress is being warmed. In a thermarest this is held within a matrix of an open cell mat, in an air mattress it is free to move by convection. It will do that to such an extent you might as well be sleeping on the ground.

Now you are using a thermarest (3 season when new, what is it now?) underneath. But the air mattress can cool via the thicker side walls. IF you have to use an air mattress use a thermarest (TAR for short) on top or get a CCF (close cell foam) mat. What you really want top do is keep the warmth close to the user which is what the TAR or a CCF on top of the mat would do. The air mattress would then only be there for comfort, it will not offer any insulation in winter.

My personal feelings are that youngsters tend to cope ok with thin mats like a TAR or CCF. It is often only with age that comfort becomes an issue.

Another opinion is to get a light and cheap CCF to go with the TAR you have. You can get a 130g CCF from Robens IIRC for about a fiver. So cheap you can cut it down so it is torso shaped to use on top of the TAR. I even cut mine down to the shape of my body complete with curves. I nearly cut it down into small rectangles to match the points of contact but I wasn't happy with the ideas I had to keep them in place (that is the hips and shoulders). I know some American ultra light campers have done this but I thought it too far. I use this mat in summer and its great for only 40-60g. Also on top of a 3 season 3/4 TAR (got for about £55 IIRC) to create a winter mat arrangement that is probably half the weight of your TAR on its own.

Seriously though you really need to get the mat right. You will lose more warmth in winter from the wrong choice of insulation underneath you than the wrong insulation above you. A 3 season sleepoing bag can be uprated with clothing the mat can not. A good 4 season, highly insulative mat will uprate a sleeping bag on its own in winter. Just my experience. I use the same sleeping bag in winter as spring to autumn believe it or not. I just uprate the insulation under neath and use clothing too. It is a quilt so I can fit more layers on underneath it like a down top without squashing the down in the bag/clothing worn.

That is another thing., If you wear a lot of clothing inside the sleeping bag to keep warm you can have the opposite effect due to the more efficient insulation in the down bag is being crushed.

You need to keep it safe as well as comfortable so avoid the air mattress. Just my opinion, you can ignore if you wish. Don't mean to preach if that is how it sounds. just want your duaghter to have fun. Just doubt it will be that if too cold with the air mat.

 

[PDA1]

I concur with PaulB. TGhe large air chambers in a typical air matress encourage convection (circulation) and warmth is swept away to the cold extremities of the mattress. Definitely place a CCF pad on top of an air matress or it will be completely ineffective. personally, I think a 4 season (so called) CCF pad such as the highlander NATO pad is sufficient as insulation, and at 13 UKP a modest purchase. Also only weighs 350grams. Many other CCF pads which would be as good, google to find alternatives. Suggest you have your daughter try the system out at home first - camping out in the garden if possible, that way she can bail easily and youi can then reassess gear requirements. She needs light weight, and CCF gives the best insulation per gram, and certainly the best per UK Pound.

 

[Paul_B]

One tip is to pack the sack with ther CCF inside but around the outside. It protects the contents (DoEers are tough on sacks - I was) and it gives a degree of stiffness and perhaps stability to the contents. It also is one way of coping with the bulky nature of them in a positive way. I prefer it to the rolled up mat on top or slung underneath or even tied vertically to the back of the sack.

Another way is to measure the inside of the sack in the width and score the mat on alternate sides then tape into a folded shape. It then will store flat against the inside back of the sack preventing hard objects digging into the back.

Sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs but these are little tips that I wish I had known as a young DofE backpacker.

I will repeat my eaarlier comment that younger people tend to have less of an issue with comfort. Don't know why but I could sleep anywhere on anything at any time as a teenager (and all day and night too if left to my own devices).

 

[rg598]

I agree about the old air mattresses. However the new designs can work extremely well in winter. They use different type of insulators within the air chambers to provide insulation. In fact, some of the highest R value pads on the market today are inflatable mattresses. Inflatable mattresses like the Thermarest NeoAir All Season (not a self inflating Thermarest, but one you have to blow up) and the Exped Synmat are good examples. I think they are well worth the money. These days you can do with one pad what used to take at least two a few years back.

 

[Paul_B]

Agree with you but those are not really the same beast as the air mattress the OP is planning to use. They are insulated form of air mattress. The neo air is like an air mattress with an insulation layer on top (air mat with CCF foam on top but in one piece). The synmat and downmat are air mattresses with either a synthetic or a down infill in the cavities themselves. Two approaches to solving the air matress convection problem but allowing the comfort of them.

Personally if you have a budget then these newer forms of insulated air mattresses are a bit of a pricey option. IIRC theyh are all close to £100 or over it.

Downmat is good to -24C, synmat is about -17C IIRC. The neo air is available in a few versions and have improved a lot from the early days with the batch problems of valves and IIRC de-lamination. Depending on the model it can be 3 season or even 4 season. Also lighter and less durable or heavier more durable versions I believe. There was a shop in north Lakes area that was recommended on here who used to do the 3/4 downmat for about 60% of the standard price you usually fond it. Almost got it as it is a good product. Didn't because I worried my legs hanging off the end (I'm 6'5") would be uncomfortable.

 

[ValG]

Great comments from those that have added to my post. I think a back garden try out is called for. I was thinking about this anyway. I have bought a Karrimat which is rated down to -15 so that should take care of the insulation and would be good enough on it's own. I like your ideas of how best to carry this and will experiment. The TAR on top could add some comfort and my daughter will have to try this out.

I take your comments on board about not using an uninsulated air mattress in winter. I can always save it for summer trips. Just for the hell of it as an experiment I personally would like to try the air mattress on top of the ccf and see how cold it gets compared to just using the ccf. Don't know whether I will get round to that though but it would be interesting to see.

Thanks all

 

[mrcharly]

IME of students going on DoE (3 of my kids so far), a lot of their kit is provided (tents and stoves). It is cheap, weighs a ton.

I urge you to do whatever you can to reduce the load your daughter is carrying. Get her a foam karrimat. It's not comfy but is warm and very light. Can also be safely sat on outside the tent when they are cooking, doesn't matter if it gets a burn mark or wet.

Go through her clothes. Work out the lightest possible load that will keep her warm.

Add extra plasters of a size suitable for covering blisters. All the kids get huge blisters. Add some witchhazel in a light bottle or plastic tube, it's really good for putting on blisters.

Get your daughter a warm hat that is softy and comfy to sleep in. Again, IME, young girls 'sleep cold' and something she can wear on her head will really help.

Teach her how to read a map and use a compass. Almost none of the kids learn this and if your daughter can navigate the others will be grateful and it will save them miles of walking.

 

[ValG]

Thanks. Your comments about provided kit are spot on. I didn't get too involved when she was doing her bronze as I wanted to see if she would take to it. Now she is moving on to the silver with two nights out I am trying to do what I can to improve comfort and make some weight savings.

 

[Lister]

You may find Sherpa useful, once you input the weights of gear, it shows you what's taking the most weight (and volume) so you can then look at how to reduce it.

http://www.sherpa-en.pistoo.net

 

[Col_M]

You may find Sherpa useful, once you input the weights of gear, it shows you what's taking the most weight (and volume) so you can then look at how to reduce it.

http://www.sherpa-en.pistoo.net

WOW, this is fantastic! why haven't I found this before? I'll be playing with this tonight I think, thanks!