Should sheep be allowed in a churchyard?
- Thread starter Bushwhacker
- Start date
Some yew trees were sacred places long before there was a church anywhere near it...
It's one of those daft ideas that the blow-ins on the council perceive as a quaint country practise. It ain't.
Good idea in principle, maybe not so in practice. Personally i'd have no issue with it but then again i've never been one for graveyards, cremate and scatter is more how the family does it......helps with the world domination ideals we all have.
Graveyards are always emotive subjects, and more so when the living don't tend to their 'bit' of them. If there are insufficient funds or volunteers to tend to them, then either they become 'wild' or something need to graze them.
It's usually rabbits or deer, tbh.
Not quite sure how I'd feel about serving up mutton I knew had grazed on the graveyard. Y'see, graves are 'supposed' to be dug to a certain depth, but a lair holds three burials, and if they all came close together, and the sexton can't crush the lower coffins, then the last ones don't go all that deep. Over time too, those shallower graves get worm worked, mice and rats and rabbits and tree roots burrow, things turn over and pull up lower debris....it's not uncommon to find small bones on the surface layers in an old kirkyard.
Eventually most gravesites end up abandoned, and they revert to a tangled land. Families move, no one visits and the use as a graveyard is forgotten except for old records that few access. Someone buys that land and wants to build, and then they find the graves again
The law says that the onus for excavation, recording, etc., is upon the developer, not the original feu or lair holder. Basically buying the lair only buys you the right to use that bit of land to bury. That's it; it's not a purchase of that piece of land, just the right to use it for a specific purpose.
If you want the gravesites kept up then someone has to pay for it.......and if everyone who knew the deceased is also deceased or disinterested, then the situation you describe is the result.
Would I find it distressing ? I wouldn't quite go that far, but I'm not sure I'd be best pleased to see them.
Sheep kept on one piece of land do cause problems, and they're not static beasts and can cause problems with erosion, etc., they make hollows as they find favoured bit to lie in that wear away areas too. Not quite as bad as rabbit burrows right enough, or foxes, or badgers.
At the end of the day unless you can stir folks up enough to either pay for upkeep or contribute regular labour, then the situation isn't likely to improve.
From an archaeologist's point of view, I can tell you that I really admire the sections that gravediggers cut
Last time we opened up one of the family lairs to put a 97 year old Auntie in beside her grandparents, I was too busy admiring the beautifully clean section the man had managed, to pay much heed to the Minister I could see phalanges and the head of a femur about a metre down in the stratigraphy. My cousin gave me a dig with an elbow and told me to stop working
British Red, there are graves right across this land, in every city, town, village and a heck of a lot of crossroads and forgotten kirkyards. There is no way that we don't disturb graves as we go about our lives. Cremation simplifies the process, but we're rapidly running out of room again. The old charnel houses were the medieval and earlier response to the problem, so it's nothing new.
atb,
M
It's usually rabbits or deer, tbh.
Not quite sure how I'd feel about serving up mutton I knew had grazed on the graveyard. Y'see, graves are 'supposed' to be dug to a certain depth, but a lair holds three burials, and if they all came close together, and the sexton can't crush the lower coffins, then the last ones don't go all that deep. Over time too, those shallower graves get worm worked, mice and rats and rabbits and tree roots burrow, things turn over and pull up lower debris....it's not uncommon to find small bones on the surface layers in an old kirkyard.
Eventually most gravesites end up abandoned, and they revert to a tangled land. Families move, no one visits and the use as a graveyard is forgotten except for old records that few access. Someone buys that land and wants to build, and then they find the graves again
The law says that the onus for excavation, recording, etc., is upon the developer, not the original feu or lair holder. Basically buying the lair only buys you the right to use that bit of land to bury. That's it; it's not a purchase of that piece of land, just the right to use it for a specific purpose. If you want the gravesites kept up then someone has to pay for it.......and if everyone who knew the deceased is also deceased or disinterested, then the situation you describe is the result.
Would I find it distressing ? I wouldn't quite go that far, but I'm not sure I'd be best pleased to see them.
Sheep kept on one piece of land do cause problems, and they're not static beasts and can cause problems with erosion, etc., they make hollows as they find favoured bit to lie in that wear away areas too. Not quite as bad as rabbit burrows right enough, or foxes, or badgers.
At the end of the day unless you can stir folks up enough to either pay for upkeep or contribute regular labour, then the situation isn't likely to improve.
From an archaeologist's point of view, I can tell you that I really admire the sections that gravediggers cut
Last time we opened up one of the family lairs to put a 97 year old Auntie in beside her grandparents, I was too busy admiring the beautifully clean section the man had managed, to pay much heed to the Minister I could see phalanges and the head of a femur about a metre down in the stratigraphy. My cousin gave me a dig with an elbow and told me to stop working British Red, there are graves right across this land, in every city, town, village and a heck of a lot of crossroads and forgotten kirkyards. There is no way that we don't disturb graves as we go about our lives. Cremation simplifies the process, but we're rapidly running out of room again. The old charnel houses were the medieval and earlier response to the problem, so it's nothing new.
atb,
M
Hi. If it is consecrated ground it is up to the Church to tend the pathways and surrounding areas of the graveyard. The council only get involved if it is a risk to the public (falling headstones) or if it is not a Church grave yard, so this would define who is responsible for letting sheep into the area and who to complain to about it.
Sheep are not something I have a problem with. As I see it, the dead are just "meat and memories" once life has departed.
The stones raised in memory of the dead are just there to keep memories fresh. I prefer the idea of cremation over burial and the stones in memory of my parents and Grand-parents are at home (I carved my parents' stones myself and they are small enough to keep indoors).
If it is animal "desecration" of the graveyard with dung you are worried about, then you would have to keep out all wildlife, insects and birds too ... which seems weird to me...
Just my opinion - and I am not known for my conformity to mainstream opinion on many subjects...
The stones raised in memory of the dead are just there to keep memories fresh. I prefer the idea of cremation over burial and the stones in memory of my parents and Grand-parents are at home (I carved my parents' stones myself and they are small enough to keep indoors).
If it is animal "desecration" of the graveyard with dung you are worried about, then you would have to keep out all wildlife, insects and birds too ... which seems weird to me...
Just my opinion - and I am not known for my conformity to mainstream opinion on many subjects...
I haven't much of problem with sheep being used to keep the grass trimmed. Our churchyard is trimmed on a voluntary basis and the elderly guy who does it regularly had an accident doing it a few years ago tripping over a grave and cracked his skull. Hes still unwell now.
The contentious issue I see is the flowers being eaten, which I understand people find upsetting but there are ways round that and artificial flowers make sense really. The buried are left in the ground for nature to take its course , keeping the grass trimmed in a similar fashion sits quite well with me.
Pretty much sums up the dung issue for me too.
The contentious issue I see is the flowers being eaten, which I understand people find upsetting but there are ways round that and artificial flowers make sense really. The buried are left in the ground for nature to take its course , keeping the grass trimmed in a similar fashion sits quite well with me.
Pretty much sums up the dung issue for me too.
not a problem - cheaper than getting someone in to cut the grass. Sheep have been used in church yards for centuries
If the sheep have toppled over the stone -- it shows that the grave yard hasn't been maintained by the church authorities.
IF the stones have been deliberately toppled it wont be by the Council -- its a church grave yard therefore nothing to do with the council. The linked telegraph article was for a municipal cemetery. And there is going to be less and less maintenance of those wit the next batch of funding cuts.
If the sheep have toppled over the stone -- it shows that the grave yard hasn't been maintained by the church authorities.
IF the stones have been deliberately toppled it wont be by the Council -- its a church grave yard therefore nothing to do with the council. The linked telegraph article was for a municipal cemetery. And there is going to be less and less maintenance of those wit the next batch of funding cuts.
John Fenna pretty much sums up my personal point of view too. I have never felt the need to visit my mum's grave (she died when I was 20) - what is buried is not the person I knew & loved. She lives on in my heart and memories. I am quite happy for my physical remains to be returned to nature in whatever way my family see fit. I would have no problem with sheep, goats, crows, ravens, badgers, foxes or whatever wandering around above me munching on the vegetation - in fact, I quite like the idea. It is all perfectly natural and is certainly no worse than what is going on out of sight six feet down.
However, I can see that others may not agree with this view and find the idea of animals loose in the graveyard distressing.
However, I can see that others may not agree with this view and find the idea of animals loose in the graveyard distressing.
There's a slurry pit up on the farm. You're most welcome to chuck/scatter your friends and relatives in there if you like?
Wouldn't bother me one bit if that is what happened to my remains! Once I am dead I am just decaying meat and bones. It's not that much different to what happens to buried bodies.
As I said, I recognise that not everyone shares my view, but that doesn't make it any less valid than anyone else's.
Respect, courtesy, quiet dignity; not hard to give to the dead we love (d).
It's one of the earliest signs of our 'society' the respect that we give to the physical remains of our family. Look up the Red Lady of Paviland (it's actually a man) for a really early British funeral. That said though, that burial had roots older and deeper in society and human psyche to be so sophisticated in it's preparation.
There are too many of us now to bury without either breaking up the remains or taking over huge swathes of land.
I'm sorry this is apparant lack of care is upsetting, Bushwacker, and that things are resolved quickly.
atb,
M
It's one of the earliest signs of our 'society' the respect that we give to the physical remains of our family. Look up the Red Lady of Paviland (it's actually a man) for a really early British funeral. That said though, that burial had roots older and deeper in society and human psyche to be so sophisticated in it's preparation.
There are too many of us now to bury without either breaking up the remains or taking over huge swathes of land.
I'm sorry this is apparant lack of care is upsetting, Bushwacker, and that things are resolved quickly.
atb,
M
I think yes, pretty much, I never saw sheep being used to keep the grass down in churchyards when I was a lad and I wandered all over the Scottish Borders, lots of little church yards there, lots of sheep too. Nor have I seen it done in other European countries and I've tramped around a fair few of them too.
I have relatives buried in Orkney from more than a hundred years ago, however all the recent ones were cremated and their ashes scattered around the base of a particular tree.
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It was sheep that kept the grass down in years gone bye. I bet people moaned about loud petrol mowers desecrating the graveyards with noise when they first came on the scene. A sheep doing what comes natural does not bother me half as much as scrotes vandalizing the graves or the council kicking them over at every opportunity.
I am afraid they have all been used as fertilizer long ago - a couple of rosebushes and some trees in a Belgian park have absorbed the nutrients from them by now.
The memories of their life are safely stored with me and rather than venerating the mud above their mouldering remains, I know that their earthly remains have gone to create new ,if different, life that others can enjoy
Although I do not worship in them I enjoy visiting churches and graveyards - they tend to be peaceful, contemplative places, and the rows of ancient gravestones (many stacked against walls or used as paving slabs) remind me that even those marked by a "permanent" marker get forgotten and the grave sites reused.
The bake oven in my parents house in Herefordshire was roofed with old gravestones from the church next door....
I would rather have my remains enrich the land in general than merely an over enriched few yards of a churchyard and my memorial ... those who want to remember me can those who don't want to remember me will forget me even if I had a huge memorial stone ...
At least the sheep are getting some nice rich grazing out of the deal!
Absolutely. I also like to see my link to the past and this yard is one of those places.
My great, great, great grandfather and his brothers also had a little rhyme written about them and the yard.
It's only a daft little village rhyme but I like it.
Jack and Jim and General Elliott,
Masons were the brothers three,
They built the wall around the graveyard,
For all of us to see.
I am afraid they have all been used as fertilizer long ago - a couple of rosebushes and some trees in a Belgian park have absorbed the nutrients from them by now.
The memories of their life are safely stored with me and rather than venerating the mud above their mouldering remains, I know that their earthly remains have gone to create new ,if different, life that others can enjoy
Although I do not worship in them I enjoy visiting churches and graveyards - they tend to be peaceful, contemplative places, and the rows of ancient gravestones (many stacked against walls or used as paving slabs) remind me that even those marked by a "permanent" marker get forgotten and the grave sites reused.
The bake oven in my parents house in Herefordshire was roofed with old gravestones from the church next door....
I would rather have my remains enrich the land in general than merely an over enriched few yards of a churchyard and my memorial ... those who want to remember me can those who don't want to remember me will forget me even if I had a huge memorial stone ...
At least the sheep are getting some nice rich grazing out of the deal!
I agree with all of that. Can't put it any better so won't try.
