Setting up The Green Mans Axe

[British Red]

Its on its way home to you Paul (posted today RMSD)

I have made it JUST sharp enough to slice paper - its easy enough to get it sharper still, but at the expense of edge resilience. It'll certainly do all the jobs you asked of it now. Whether you need to replace the helve will be matter for your judgement - if it feels like its "turning" in your hnd on impact, change it. Its easy enough to do (honest).

I'd be interested in what you think of it when you get it - should be there Tuesday as it was late today when I sent it off

ATB

Red

 

[TheGreenMan]

Superb, Red.

I’m very interested to look at the edge you’ve put on it, sounds very instructive.

I’ll try and find something to take a swing at, to see if it twists at all, and I’ll post some pics assuming I haven’t had to resort to chopping something down in a neighbour's garden in the early hours

Thanks,
Paul.

 

[Blackshuck]

I've always taken a file to my pull hoe, it makes cutting out weeds from close to young plants so much cleaner. My Dad always kept an edge on his spade. Same principle I suppose.

David

 

[TheGreenMan]

The axe is back with me now, Red.

I didn’t think you’d be able to straighten-out the zigzag edge (looking along the edge, toe to heel) like you have, it can’t have been easy with the handicap of the head and handle misalignment.

The cutting edge looks to be strong, thicker than I was expecting, by the way, it looks like I grind mine on the thin side. It’s an interesting comparison to what I’ve done so far.

I’ll have a look around for something to chop in the next week or so, and post some pics. I’m quite worried about it twisting and glancing, so I’ll take it easy to be on the safe side, and it’s not as if I have good axemanship skills or anything.

Thanks again,
Paul.

 

[British Red]

Paul,

I must confess, I left it a little thicker than I do my own. Mainly because I had to take quite a lot of steel in the re-profile - if I took it too thin and you found it chipped a lot with what you use it for, you would lose another lot as I widened it out.

If you would like slimmer when you've tried it, just pop it back and I'll thin the convex out - now that its even that doesn't take long at all.

Red

 

[TheGreenMan]

...I must confess, I left it a little thicker than I do my own. Mainly because I had to take quite a lot of steel in the re-profile - if I took it too thin and you found it chipped a lot with what you use it for, you would lose another lot as I widened it out...

Well, I think that’s the right approach, Red. I had a problem with my Wildlife hatchet chipping when I was limbing a fallen horse chestnut, last year. You couldn’t see the chips, but when I ran the tip of my thumb nail down the edge I could feel the chips. I thickened the edge a little, and later in the year when I trimmed and bucked a large-ish ash wood limb with the same hatchet, it stood-up fine to it, and I used a good deal more force with the ash than the chestnut.

I remember a post made last year by Basemetal over at British Blades, where he mentioned 'silicate occlusions', if I remember correctly, at the junction of limbs and pole of trees. I imagined that these 'occlusions' might be one of the reasons why limbing seems to be so hard on an axe edge.

Oh boy, theres a lot to learn!

...If you would like slimmer when you've tried it, just pop it back and I'll thin the convex out - now that its even that doesn't take long at all...

That's a very kind offer, thank you. The work you've done on this axe for me will serve as a good benchmark for my own future work.

Photos and written descriptions are useful but however good they are, they're no substitute for having the object in front of you and looking with the Mark-1 eyeball, and of course, then swinging the darned thing

Much obliged to you, Red,
Paul.

 

[TheGreenMan]

Hi Red,

Got round to doing some tests of the grind you sent me.

Just to set the scene – a horse chestnut tree that fell during high winds, about a year ago, having been weakened by fungus at the base of the pole/bole. The north side (the side in the photos) of the pole/bole are a little ‘punky’ but the central and south side of the pole/bole are wet but fairly sound (blurred the background of this one just because it looked so awfully urban ):

The initial cuts with the Wett you sent me – the pole/bole is about 1m in diameter:

Limbing – Image for scale- as they go, it’s a big ‘un!:

Initial transverse and tangential cuts:

Detail:

The two axes - You can see where I’ve whacked the Wett on the handle, no pretence at skill in axemanship on my part, I’m a ‘greenhorn’ that’s for sure.

I tried out the Hultafors as a comparison to the Wett, and the Hult out-performed the Wett in every way. It glanced less, it cut deeper, both at the 45° cuts and in the transverse cuts. Cleaner cuts, fewer glances, deeper cuts. If the Hultafors had a 64cm handle like the Wett it would be an awesome cutter, at least on the tree I cut into.

The steel of the Hultafors is also in better shape than the edge of the
Wett after the cutting session. The Wett feels a little rough with the tip of the thumb nail, the Hultafors is almost smooth to the thumb nail.

If you like I’ll be glad (but not in the pocket ) to send you both of the axes in their current state for your appraisal.

Cheers,
Paul.

 

[British Red]

Thats not limbing - Limbing is striking off itty bitty branches

Now the glancing worries me - that I suspect is partially the out of alignment head. For the type of cutting you are doing there (all cross grain pretty much) we can thin the progile down a lot more if you like - it won't help the steel if thats burring on you our the head alignment.

Can you get a shot looking down on the eye of both axe heads Paul? I'd be interested to see the comparative profile - I must admit that Wett is a LOT broader than a GB (wish I'd done a comparison shot myself)

Red

 

[TheGreenMan]

Thats not limbing - Limbing is striking off itty bitty branches ...

It’s all I could find that was laying around

...Now the glancing worries me - that I suspect is partially the out of alignment head. For the type of cutting you are doing there (all cross grain pretty much) we can thin the progile down a lot more if you like - it won't help the steel if thats burring on you our the head alignment...

The glancing was noticeably worse with the Wett, but that could be because I'm useless with an axe!

...Can you get a shot looking down on the eye of both axe heads Paul? I'd be interested to see the comparative profile - I must admit that Wett is a LOT broader than a GB (wish I'd done a comparison shot myself)...

Here you go, Red, the Wett next to the Hultafors (Hult on the left):

Cheers,
Paul.

 

[Shing]

I'm surprised you can cut the axe head with a file, I would have thought the axe head would be nearly as hard as the file and the file would slide off.

 

[British Red]

Its not a quick job Shing to be honest but it does work - eventually.

Paul, I doubt that its your technique that causes the glancing - but the alignment could well make it a lot worse - if you imagine that the head is hitting about 5-10 degrees off true when you hold the helve straight its going to be a factor.

If you look at the profile of the Hult compared to the Wett you can see why it bites better! I've taken maybe 2mm of the shoulder of the Wett and I can make it sharper for you - but the slimness of that Hult blade is always going to penetrate better cross grain. I was very surprised buy that profile on the Wett for a "Forest Axe" - this is the profile of my GB Scandinavian Forest

You can see the difference - my working axe is similarly thin.

My suggestion (if you are willing to keep going with this), is for you to re-hang the axe straight and try it again. Then we can push the shoulders of the convex back and thin the bit some more. It'll never be as fine as that Hult (which is lovely by the way), but we absolutetely can keep working on it

Red

 

[TheGreenMan]

I'm surprised you can cut the axe head with a file, I would have thought the axe head would be nearly as hard as the file and the file would slide off.

You'd be surprised, Shing. A fine file will skate, but take a deep breath and a b@stard file to it, and you'll start to remove metal. It's simply a matter of removing the scratches made by the b@stard from then on, and paying attention to the geometry, of course, and having confidence in one's own judgement, or not caring how it turns-out

...Paul, I doubt that its your technique that causes the glancing - but the alignment could well make it a lot worse - if you imagine that the head is hitting about 5-10 degrees off true when you hold the helve straight its going to be a factor...

Thanks for the encouragement, and I think you're right about the misalignment of the head and handle.

...If you look at the profile of the Hult compared to the Wett you can see why it bites better! ..

That's for sure!

...I've taken maybe 2mm of the shoulder of the Wett and I can make it sharper for you - but the slimness of that Hult blade is always going to penetrate better cross grain. I was very surprised buy that profile on the Wett for a "Forest Axe" - this is the profile of my GB Scandinavian Forest

You can see the difference - my working axe is similarly thin...

Yep, I like the look of that long slow curve from just behind the shoulder, and along the cheaks. Looks like a cutter to me. Of course, I'm at a disadvantage at not having a GB Scandinavian Forest, but the cheap option is what got me into this problem in the first place

...My suggestion (if you are willing to keep going with this), is for you to re-hang the axe straight and try it again...

I'm definately up for this, and stamina for a project (within limits) is one of my few saving graces. I'm as stuborn as a mule, if needs be.

...Then we can push the shoulders of the convex back and thin the bit some more...

I'd like to take this to the next stage.

...It'll never be as fine as that Hult (which is lovely by the way)...

Oh boy, can't take all the credit for this, this was my first axe regrind, so it must be mostly down to Hultafors [I did a lot of reading before I bought it ]

...but we absolutetely can keep working on it...

Cool, that's what I'd hoped for, and I'm willing to follow the trail, Red. It's all good learning.

Thanks,
Paul.

 

[TheGreenMan]

I remember a post made last year by Basemetal over at British Blades, where he mentioned 'silicate occlusions', if I remember correctly, at the junction of limbs and pole of trees. I imagined that these 'occlusions' might be one of the reasons why limbing seems to be so hard on an axe edge.

That should probably have been 'silicate inclusions' not 'occlusions'

EDIT: Just to clarify, I believe I misquoted Basemetal, not that Basemetal incorrectly wrote 'occlusions' instead of 'inclusions'.

 

[oetzi]

You can also use an array of cheap stones to rework the edge.
Usually, I start with an 80 grid an work up to 600:

The stones look like this after an axe or two:

By moving the stone in arc around and over the edge its possible to get a nice convexed edge.
One hour of work with an 80 and an 200 grid stone transformed the edge of a Hultafors:

Which will be fine-tuned later.

 

[TheGreenMan]

The stones look like this after an axe or two:

Love the shapes worn into those stones, ozeti. I've got to ask, what is that metal tool on the left?

Best regards,
Paul.

 

[TheGreenMan]

...My suggestion... is for you to re-hang the axe straight and try it again...

How should I/we proceed with this, maestro?

Kind regards,
Paul.

 

[British Red]

Well - first get hold of a new helve! I've done a tutorial on re-hanging an axe that might help after that but you aren't going to rescue that one sadly. So its a question of sourcing a new one, saw off the current one and drill out the top.

Red

 

[oetzi]

Love the shapes worn into those stones, ozeti. I've got to ask, what is that metal tool on the left?

Best regards,
Paul.

Thats a sort of an extra vice, called a "File holder". Whatever of an unusual shape you want to take a file at, you can clamp it in and the fix this tool in the stationary vice.
This not too good pic shows a Kukri clamped in this file holder. The jaws are lined with leather bto prevent scratches.

 

[TheGreenMan]

Well - first get hold of a new helve!...

Would a replacement GB Forest Axe helve fit?

...I've done a tutorial on re-hanging an axe that might help...

Where the heck is that?

...saw off the current one and drill out the top....

As a sign of good will and commitment ...

Cheers,
Paul.

 

[TheGreenMan]

Thats a sort of an extra vice, called a "File holder". Whatever of an unusual shape you want to take a file at, you can clamp it in and the fix this tool in the stationary vice.
This not too good pic shows a Kukri clamped in this file holder. The jaws are lined with leather bto prevent scratches.

That is a very handy tool, thanks maestro!

Kind regards,
Paul.