Ricasso...

[Marauder]

Hey folks,

New member etc...

I'm keen to hear peoples opinions on the benefits of the bevel edge ricasso featured on most bushcraft knives? I own a RM/Emberleaf Bushcraft knife which has an approximate 10mm ricasso. After beating the life out of the knife, i've come to the decision that I don't like the ricasso. Mostly because it interferes with making controlled power cuts, but also because it can interfere with sharpening. For these reasons i'm thinking of going down the custom route for my next knife. Well, that or stick with the collection of free Mora Heavey Duties i've accumulated through the years!

So, my questions is, can anyone give me a good reason to retain the bevel edge ricasso feature on a bushcraft knife? I've only ever had negative experiences with it and i'm hoping somebody can enlighten me on it's benefits. For example, is there a specialist cutting grip i'm not aware of?

I should say I know the history behind it, the historical use for it and I know it can be beneficial in the production process.

Anyways, blah blah...

Thanks for reading and answering if you can!

M.

 

[BigMonster]

Hate it. Handle is for holding, blade is for cutting. I always ask for the cutting edge to be all the way to the handle on my custom knives. It's against simple mechanics to move the cutting part of the blade away from the handle (and to force your grip on to the part of the knife that is not meant for gripping - cholio even dumber idea).

 

[Potatohead]

Never personally seen the point (no pun intended)
I always prefer edge as close up to the handle or guard as possible for control and You can still choke up on a 4 1/2" - ish blade safely without the need for ricasso..
But thats just me and how i learnt to use a knife.

I tried a bark river with a big ish ricasso and the edge felt miles away from my hand. Very strange.

On much larger more weight forward blades where you have the odd occasion you might want to gain a little more control then i can understand it.

 

[Forest fella]

yeah I'm with you , I thought it was there for you to be able to put 1 Finger around it to grip when trying to do more controlled whittling.
And that sounds a daft idea anyway? as it's a Thick square piece of slippery metal with a Razor's Edge in front of it, ''Pass''

 

[John Fenna]

Not a fan of big ricassos - a small choil can be useful for getting stones up close to the handle when sharpening - but big ricassos...no.

 

[Broch]

Hi Marauder, welcome to the forum!

I believe a ricasso on a knife like the Woodlore is purely aesthetic and serves no real purpose other than to prevent damaging the expensive piece of wood on the handle when sharpening it.

On blades with a guard, it can allow your index finger to be looped around the guard for certain cuts (particularly a rotating cut where you're almost pivoting the cut around your index finger) but on modern knives the ricasso is usually too short to do that safely.

So aesthetic only and mainly because uncle Ray said he liked it so all the diciples that follow his every word want it

 

[C_Claycomb]

Not sure what you mean by "bevel edge" ricasso. I just had a look at the RM/Emberleaf knife and the edges of the ricasso are not bevelled....unless you are referring to the plunge line?

I am not sure that it is right to say that Ray likes them, hence they appear in all the related knives. There has been wide variation in the length of ricassos on RM knives, even from the same makers. Some Alan Wood versions have really short ones, and some have really long ones. The Emberleaf version is in the middle, longer than I would have, but not excessively long (like early A.Wright bushcraft knives). Back in 2003 when I was on a RM course, the instructors were very much against any sizeable ricasso on a bushcraft knife. It came up because I took a knife I had made modelled after a Ed Fowler design, which had a 3/4 inch ricasso and big brass guard.

I don't see any good reason to have much ricasso on a bushcraft knife. That Ed Fowler was great for some tasks, no way your hand would slip while skinning with that big guard, but it sucked for wood work.

What also makes a difference is the length of the plunge. If the blade has been ground with a platten with a soft radius, the total non-cutting blade length can get quite long. The same ricasso on a blade ground with a sharp plunge could be a very different beast to work with. There is also the matter of how the leading edge of the handle is angled. If the front of the handle angles out down the blade the hand can ride further forward, and a bit of ricasso doesn't matter. It is worth mentioning, if you run wood too close to the front of the handle, you can wind up with some impressive splinters driven into the web of hand between thumb and first finger.

As an example of both a sharp plunge, and a slightly angled handle, the Spyderco Bushcraft.

 

[TLM]

A ricasso might make sense in a sword or dagger but on a working small knife I see no use for it on the contrary it makes whittling and some close cutting operations more difficult. In a meat cutter or "pure" hunting knife it might not cause problems.

 

[Stew]

As a maker, if you don’t put a ricasso on the knife, you just get moans about not being able to sharpen all the edge.

 

[Corso]

As a maker, if you don’t put a ricasso on the knife, you just get moans about not being able to sharpen all the edge.

That's the choil isn't it?

I thought the Ricasso is so you can choke up with a finger the other side of the guard - I find them worthless on a bushcraft knife but then I use classic moras almost exclusively

 

[oldtimer]

Long before Ray Mears, most of us used "scout knives" for bushcrafting. They were mostly really hunting knives with grinds other than scandi. Is the ricasso on modern scandi ground bushcraft knives merely an obsolete hangover from earlier designs?

 

[Stew]

That's the choil isn't it?

I thought the Ricasso is so you can choke up with a finger the other side of the guard - I find them worthless on a bushcraft knife but then I use classic moras almost exclusively

The ricasso is the flat between the handle and bevel. If it's not there, there's no real chance for a choil, though you could put a choil notch in. If you're going to do that, you may as well just have a small ricasso though as it'll make fitting the handle easier.

 

[Broch]

Long before Ray Mears, most of us used "scout knives" for bushcrafting. They were mostly really hunting knives with grinds other than scandi. Is the ricasso on modern scandi ground bushcraft knives merely an obsolete hangover from earlier designs?

Same here but, on mine at least, they had guards and we used them at times with the index finger over the guard as I mentioned earlier so I suspect you are right. I see no reason for one on a 'bushcraft' knife - whatever that is.

My comment about RM was a joke by the way; but there's no doubt that a lot of knives are produced just to look like the Woodlore and that has, what I would call, a medium sized ricasso.

 

[TLM]

I am not at all certain where the guards on present knives originate. Are they relics from weapons or hunting knives where they apparently are relics. In all the years I have used a puukko without a guard I have never had a slip accident, I probably have cut myself in all the other ways but not so. Once it was a bit too close on a very slippery PA handle but right after that puukko was retired.

 

[Broch]

I agree; I have had several knives with guards on and I can't see how they would protect you unless you were using the knife to stab or drive into or bore into an object. Maybe for hunting, if your hand is wet or covered in blood, it would protect if the knife suddenly cam up to a bone or something as you were push-cutting. I'm only ever preparing small game these days so don't have a need for it.

I still have an old Frosts hunting knife with a guard; but it is a rare day that it comes out with me.

 

[John Fenna]

I was always told that if you need a guard on a knife then you are using the knife wrongly!
I don't think that applies to fighting knives though...

 

[dnarcher]

Gives you space to sharpen edge without fouling on handle?

 

[TLM]

Gives you space to sharpen edge without fouling on handle?

Sounds good but not needed in practise.

 

[Marauder]

Hey, thanks everyone for replying! There were a few days there where I thought my post would go unanswered. Phew! Glad to find I’m not the only persons who’s not a fan of the ricasso.

So, I asked Sandy from Jacklore fame and he very kindly and succinctly explained that RM made the ricasso fashionable as he liked to be able to choke up on the blade to make better use of the blade tip on finer woodwork details. And also believed it helped with sharpening. Which makes sense. I’ve never needed to choke up on the blade. Maybe I have longer fingers?!

Sandy went on to say that Mors K was an exponent of having the blade come back as far as possible so that greater cutting force can be achieved in that region, with the chest lever for example. I agree with Mors perspective. And experience.

Sandy also mentioned the ‘plunge’ in his reply. To be sure, am I correct in thinking the curved section joining the scandi grind with the tangs main straight edge is referred to as the plunge?


So, to those that have ordered a custom knife with no ricasso, how did you word your request?

‘No ricasso, bring the plunge right back to the handle’?

Thanks again for the education folks. You’re all stars!

M

 

[Marauder]

Not sure what you mean by "bevel edge" ricasso. I just had a look at the RM/Emberleaf knife and the edges of the ricasso are not bevelled....unless you are referring to the plunge line?

I am not sure that it is right to say that Ray likes them, hence they appear in all the related knives. There has been wide variation in the length of ricassos on RM knives, even from the same makers. Some Alan Wood versions have really short ones, and some have really long ones. The Emberleaf version is in the middle, longer than I would have, but not excessively long (like early A.Wright bushcraft knives). Back in 2003 when I was on a RM course, the instructors were very much against any sizeable ricasso on a bushcraft knife. It came up because I took a knife I had made modelled after a Ed Fowler design, which had a 3/4 inch ricasso and big brass guard.

I don't see any good reason to have much ricasso on a bushcraft knife. That Ed Fowler was great for some tasks, no way your hand would slip while skinning with that big guard, but it sucked for wood work.

What also makes a difference is the length of the plunge. If the blade has been ground with a platten with a soft radius, the total non-cutting blade length can get quite long. The same ricasso on a blade ground with a sharp plunge could be a very different beast to work with. There is also the matter of how the leading edge of the handle is angled. If the front of the handle angles out down the blade the hand can ride further forward, and a bit of ricasso doesn't matter. It is worth mentioning, if you run wood too close to the front of the handle, you can wind up with some impressive splinters driven into the web of hand between thumb and first finger.

As an example of both a sharp plunge, and a slightly angled handle, the Spyderco Bushcraft.

Hey, I was trying to pinpoint the location of the ricasso on the blade side. As historically a ricasso could feature on both sides of a knife. My poor English I’m afraid. Derp!