Responsibility to future bushcrafters

[cbr6fs]

Been spending the last couple of months trying to find somewhere to spend 2 nights doing bushcrafty type stuff anywhere around Derbyshire.

Recruited a few friends and family members that live in the area and together we must have asked easily over 100 people/organisations for permission to camp in their woods.

Every single one has so far said no more worryingly and disappointing though is every single one has already had problems with "bushcraft types" before.

Some have allowed people to stay and found they left the place in a right state, others have had people stay without requesting permission and have also left the place in a state.

We've had complaints from being drunk and rowdy, leaving rubbish, leaving fire scars, leaving shelters, chopping down perfectly good trees, one group that hacked away at a very old very large oak tree requiring the land owner to have to pay to get it felled after as it was a danger, one land owner i spoke with said 2 or more of 1 group that stayed in his wood must have had stomach problems as they left their #2's and rolls of toilet paper when they left.

When i was a lot younger i spent a few weeks asking farms and organisations in the same areas for permission to hunt (with air rifle) it got to the stage where i had to turn down offers as people were so keen, part of the agreement then was that i'd probably spend some nights on the land as well.

What's struck me is the change in land owners attitudes in all those years, think about that, that's well over 100 separate land owners that have had real world problems strong enough to put them off other people using a bit of land they usually never bother with.
Even if some are exaggerating that still leaves a LOT of people "believing" they are bushcrafting causing damage and harm enough miff off owners.

Purely out of curiosity i asked many of the owners i spoke with if we were backpacking could we pitch on their land, they all said yes they would find us a spot.

What happened to a hobby that's supposedly based upon being at one with nature and leaving no trace?
Why is backpacking seen as less risky to them than bushcrafting?
Who is responsible for damaging this land and our reputations?

It might be time for us to start putting pressure on others we know that leave fire scars and shelters for the sake of our hobby.

What are your thoughts and experiences?


Cheers
Mark

 

[Toddy]

Many of us keep pushing the 'leave no trace' ethos, but there are others who believe that because they've put some effort in, that it's okay to leave evidences of what they've done lying around.

It's one thing to have a settled camp, where regular use means that it's actually less damaging and less heavy on the natural resources to build solid and leave in situ for frequent return; it's another entirely to built shelter after shelter after shelter, and leave them up, and to constantly take down trees and slash greenery to make them. Let alone the human excrement left lying with the litter

Fires are a huge issue for so many folks; most of us like a fire; that doesn't mean it needs to be enormous enough to challenge the 5th of November bonfires
It's a social thing to sit around the fire and enjoy the company, but to enjoy where you are, to be aware of the natural world around you, needs a bit of chilled out quiet too.

I feel really sorry for those landowners who find their land and woods trashed by at best ill mannered loutish behaviour, and at worst by outright vandalism. They're the ones left clearing it up, tholing both the hassle and the disappointment and anger that must result.

I don't know the answer; I do know that I preach the responsiblity that goes with rights of access, and I do teach and encourage leave no trace. There's the other bit that goes with it too; just because you can, doesn't mean you should, when it comes to taking down trees, and taking materials.

That view's not very popular in some company; tough.

Best of luck finding a site though

M

 

[cbr6fs]

What i found most shocking was the faces of the landowners when i mentioned "bushcrafting" to me before this experience it meant being at one with nature and enjoying it as is, to many of the landowners it was like i'd just slapped them across the face.

Yet mention backpacking and they don't mind.

Spoke about 20 mins with one elderly chatty gent and his problem was the fires, he said backpackers use stoves and keep quiet, the bushcrafters he's had stay have had raging fires and out of 5 groups 3 were drunk to the point of falling over, his words were "it was like kicking out time at the local on new years eve down there (the woods)"

Old enough to realise that you get the louts and bad un's in any hobby you do, i'm a cyclist and they don't exactly ingratiate themselves all the time, yet out of lets say 100 owners not a single 1 had a good word to say or offered permission, that seems like there are a fair few out there taking to pee.


It might not make you popular in some circles Mary, but pushing the "leave no trace" is the only way i can see us having a chance with future generations adopting this hobby.

 

[mountainm]

Offer to leave a £50 deposit and a tenner for the use of land.

 

[Dogoak]

A sad state of affairs

Luckily I'm sure that most of us on here have the sound ethos of 'leave no trace'.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who is responsible for situations like the above have no right to call themselves Bushcrafter's.

Good luck in your quest for permission and hopefully you can go someway to improving the bushcraft image.

 

[didicoy]

And then you get odd bushcrafters on this forum who wholeheartedly believe they have a right to set up camp/sleep on private land. Even though the landowner may have had similar experiences as have been mentioned in this thread. We all need to respect the landowners wishes. If you only own your home and garden. This is a place you expect to be shown respect.

 

[Clouston98]

I'm only 15, go Bushcrafting/camping (whatever you call it) a lot, light a lot of fires, do ,many other tasks such as woodcarving, collecting resource etc etc and always leave no trace- it's only right really and it's not difficult- I'd you carried something in you can carry it out, if you built/cleared an area for a fire- you're capable of clearing it all away and retiring it to a natural state.

When we go for wale with the dog in the local area, we often pick up bits of litter others have dropped, leaving the place in better condition!

It's sad really- I hope people start to tidy up after themselves.

 

[cbr6fs]

Offer to leave a £50 deposit and a tenner for the use of land.

I laugh because i'd heard through the mate grapevine that one farmer who had a great piece of woodland was a keen biker into old Jap stuff, offered to lend him my CBX1000 for the days we stayed but still he wouldn't budge.

Problem he had was that he believed that if we stayed, others would see us and think it's ok to stay there then he'd be inundated with folks wanting to camp there.

A sad state of affairs

Luckily I'm sure that most of us on here have the sound ethos of 'leave no trace'.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who is responsible for situations like the above have no right to call themselves Bushcrafter's.

Good luck in your quest for permission and hopefully you can go someway to improving the bushcraft image.

And then you get odd bushcrafters on this forum who wholeheartedly believe they have a right to set up camp/sleep on private land. Even though the landowner may have had similar experiences as have been mentioned in this thread. We all need to respect the landowners wishes. If you only own your home and garden. This is a place you expect to be shown respect.

Good to hear/read that others feel as strongly as i do, have any of you had similar experiences with seeking permissions?


Not sure what the solution is, i think if we try and guide folks away from having big fires and leaving no trace it can't do nothing but help our cause in the future.

Fires did seem to be the sticking point for many of the ones i spoke with.
Bushcrafting goes pretty much hand in hand with fires so it will be tough to try and self regulate, maybe a bit of forum peer pressure to keep them small and to cover them up after would help, what do you guys think?

You'd think land owners would be climbing over themselves to make a few quid of what is otherwise useless woodland to them, i guess their experiences are THAT bad they just don't see it worth the risk

 

[British Red]

And then you get odd bushcrafters on this forum who wholeheartedly believe they have a right to set up camp/sleep on private land. Even though the landowner may have had similar experiences as have been mentioned in this thread. We all need to respect the landowners wishes. If you only own your home and garden. This is a place you expect to be shown respect.

Well said sir.

 

[slowworm]

Despite being a member of this forum and know about the various bushcraft celebs etc I'd be a bit surprised if someone asked to use my woodland for bushcraft - does everyone use the phrase? I'd be much more willing to listen to someone asking to camp (however they intend to do it) and then show interest in what wild plants there are, what wood they can use and more importantly what they can't (e.g. keep dead standing wood for the wildlife), etc.

 

[Blaidd]

Sounds good slowworm, it seems like its the name that's the problem, doesn't it? Im interested in Every Day Carry, but if you mention to someone you like being "prepared" for things, instead of thinking of Boy Scouts, they think I'm a doomsday prepper waiting for the zombie hordes! (Sounds like the zombies are already out there though). I hate regulation but maybe a Guild of Bushcraft might be a way to separate the serious from the 'lads'?

 

[boatman]

And then you get odd bushcrafters on this forum who wholeheartedly believe they have a right to set up camp/sleep on private land. Even though the landowner may have had similar experiences as have been mentioned in this thread. We all need to respect the landowners wishes. If you only own your home and garden. This is a place you expect to be shown respect.

Setting up camp might be a problem but sleeping in a bivvy bag without lighting a fire seems harmless to me but of course in England we mostly have no right to. In most cases it was impossible at the time to know who the landowner was let alone what their wishes were, in the real world.

 

[Bluffer]

I've led groups on day trips in the hills and it's amazing how much impact is made by small groups of otherwise intelligent people within a few hours.

Multiply that by 10 groups of 5-15 on maybe only 26 weekends of the year and it soon adds up to a fair amount of litter, human waste, dogs off the lead in sheep country, parking on verges, nesting birds startled, etc, etc, the list goes on...

I know several estate owners and fully understand why they are reluctant to allow people on their land.

 

[cbr6fs]

Despite being a member of this forum and know about the various bushcraft celebs etc I'd be a bit surprised if someone asked to use my woodland for bushcraft - does everyone use the phrase? I'd be much more willing to listen to someone asking to camp (however they intend to do it) and then show interest in what wild plants there are, what wood they can use and more importantly what they can't (e.g. keep dead standing wood for the wildlife), etc.

If i asked about camping mostly the owners seemed accepting, when i started asking about camping in the woodland it's then the conversation usually gets onto bushcrafting.

The two words that seemed to gain the strongest reaction were "fire" and "bushcraft"

Sounds good slowworm, it seems like its the name that's the problem, doesn't it? Im interested in Every Day Carry, but if you mention to someone you like being "prepared" for things, instead of thinking of Boy Scouts, they think I'm a doomsday prepper waiting for the zombie hordes! (Sounds like the zombies are already out there though). I hate regulation but maybe a Guild of Bushcraft might be a way to separate the serious from the 'lads'?

Problem is, i don't really who these folks are that are acting irresponsibly, my first thought were kids getting away from parents and acting up, but in the cases i talked about the land owners were saying they were middle aged blokes about my age.

Setting up camp might be a problem but sleeping in a bivvy bag without lighting a fire seems harmless to me but of course in England we mostly have no right to. In most cases it was impossible at the time to know who the landowner was let alone what their wishes were, in the real world.

I have and continue to wild/stealth camp.

I stealth camp mainly on higher ground, i pitch at dusk and break camp at damn, i use a stove but no fires and i pitch in quiet areas out of everyones way.
If i poop i bag it and carry it out, if i pee i do it away from any water sources, i don't wash in or swim in lakes/tarns and most of my food is boil in the bag so i don't need to clean pots and pans after.
Apart from flattening the grass with my tent i pride myself that no one would have any other idea i've been there.



Straying onto someone elses land, starting large fires, leaving rubbish, beers cans, fire scars and being rowdy during the stay are the problems as i see them not so much the camping.

I'm sure we all want nice roaring fires each time we camp, i know i do, in fact i listed it in my essentials for the bushcraft weekend with my brother.
Unless there is a organised fire pit, permission is asked and given or the camper digs a hole then fills it in after they've finished i don't think it's responsible to have them ALL the time though.

I think if we guide new members and remind then of the leave no trace philosophy it can't do any harm.

I've led groups on day trips in the hills and it's amazing how much impact is made by small groups of otherwise intelligent people within a few hours.

Multiply that by 10 groups of 5-15 on maybe only 26 weekends of the year and it soon adds up to a fair amount of litter, human waste, dogs off the lead in sheep country, parking on verges, nesting birds startled, etc, etc, the list goes on...

I know several estate owners and fully understand why they are reluctant to allow people on their land.

Throw alcohol into the mix and it gets even worse

 

[Spaniel man]

"I have and continue to wild/stealth/illegally camp, i realise it's illegal and i know if i'm caught there is a chance i will be asked to move on.

I stealth camp mainly on higher ground, i pitch at dusk and break camp at damn, i use a stove but no fires and i pitch in quiet areas out of everyones way.
If i poop i bag it and carry it out, if i pee i do it away from any water sources, i don't wash in or swim in lakes/tarns and most of my food is boil in the bag so i don't need to clean pots and pans after.
Apart from flattening the grass with my tent i pride myself that no one would have any other idea i've been there.
Yes it's illegal but if everyone acted responsibly then it would at least be tolerated.

Straying onto someone elses land, starting large fires, leaving rubbish, beers cans, fire scars and being rowdy during the stay are the problems as i see them not so much the camping.

I'm sure we all want nice roaring fires each time we camp, i know i do, in fact i listed it in my essentials for the bushcraft weekend with my brother.
Unless there is a organised fire pit, permission is asked and given or the camper digs a hole then fills it in after they've finished i don't think it's responsible to have them ALL the time though.

I think if we guide new members and remind then of the leave no trace philosophy it can't do any harm."




I hate to say it matey, even encouraging new members to 'leave no trace' is still endorsing illegal wild camping, certainly in England anyway. As you have said, you continue to wild camp on land without permission. As a landowner myself, it would still irk me if I knew someone had camped in my woods without permission. It doesn't matter if you leave no trace. Sometimes ( and how are you to know if you haven't asked ) there may be valid reasons why a landowner might not want someone camping there. It may be to do with livestock, wildlife, or any numbers of things. I would certainly know if someone had camped on any part of my patch, even if they had practised 'leave no trace' camping (no such thing) , and it would pee me off if they hadn't asked. I might not be bothered to walk over and have a word with the person at the time, but it would certainly make me watch out for it in the future, and be less accommodating next time. "Bushcraft" in all it's guises is really just camping with different kit, and it should be done in areas where it is allowed, or where permission is gained. If that means travelling to an area where it is permitted, then so be it. It is a hobby after all. It's not on to expect to be able to just walk down the road and camp in someone else's garden.
I'm sure that most members here would be totally respectful of any area they are allowed to spend time in, but some aren't, and how is the landowner supposed to know if he hasn't met you. I would be much more likely to allow someone to stay in the woods if they asked first.
Having just read this all through, It sounds like a bit of a moan, please don't take it as such, I just wanted to offer a balancing viewpoint.

 

[British Red]

Having just read this all through, It sounds like a bit of a moan, please don't take it as such, I just wanted to offer a balancing viewpoint.

Thats not a moan. A buddy of mine decided to spray his (narrow) wood strip with liquid manure just around dawn. After all, no-one had asked permission to camp, so he had no way to know anyone might be trespassing did he? Apparently some odd noises came from his woods as the liquid cow manure sheeted over it!

 

[Spaniel man]

Dammit, I knew I should have got myself a muckspreader

 

[Spaniel man]

In all seriousness though, what if I decided to go shooting in my woods at 5 in the morning, and there were people there that I didn't know about...in camouflage tarps and hammocks......Bit dodgy...

 

[British Red]

Well, you and I are responsible shooters, but they are certainly putting themselves in danger if, for example, someone was deer stalking and could not discern their pitch. I could see a situation of a round from a high seat ruining their day.

 

[Toddy]

Mod Hat On

We make huge efforts not to encourage, condone or advise others to participate in illegal activities.
Too many people have worked too hard to either own their own land, or gain permission to use land.

Leave no trace is a very good thing, and it bears practice, but it'd be hypocritical to use that as an excuse for courtesy and respect.

As ever, your understanding would be much appreciated.

Toddy