question from a psychologist about children's learning

[robin wood]

Here's another adult one.....how many tea drinkers out there warm the tea pot before putting the tea and hot water in? Do you know why you do it? well some when they think about it would say that it stops the water cooling quickly and hot water makes better tea. The truth is you do it because your mum did it and her mum and so on back to the 1700's when tea drinking first became widespread in the UK and when teapots were more expensive and more fragile than today. If you did not warm the pot before pouring on the boiling water you could crack your teapot. Today it makes no difference,how many useless actions have gone on there over the years?

 

[amorphia]

That's a good one!

I imagine that for a while, there may have been a period where teapots were still easily crackable, but the reason people were doing it had become that they just learnt it that way. In which case they would have been doing something useful but not knowing why. Now if someone can come up with a bushcrafty version of something like that, I'll be really happy!

Cheers,

Ben

 

[Tadpole]

I think “doing as you are told” or ‘doing it as you were shown’ is a survival trait of all complex societal race/groups. Thankfully, there are ‘just enough’ offspring of the ‘always question methods /demand a reason’ type, who survive to move evolution forward.
FWIW my mother never warmed the pot, or put milk in first, and I don't drink tea.

 

[robin wood]

I am not sure that bushcraft is your best area for finding the examples you want. Why? because most folk doing "bushcraft" have not learnt skills passed down for generations but relearned them often through the teachings of middle class intellectuals such as Ray Meersa nd other folk running bushcraft courses. This is very similar to the reinvention of the arts and crafts which occurred in the early 20th C in UK, Sweden and Japan.

I am sure if you talked to folk who hunt/fish and do outdoorsy stuff in Sweden you would get more of the passed down through the generations stuff complete with useless actions/folklore etc. There would be examples in the craft world. Here is one.

For many years bladesmiths did a thing called edge packing. Many books still recommend it. After you have forged your blade you work the edge (hit it with a hammer on the anvil) at a slightly lower temperature, reheating it several times but not taking it back up to red heat. This was thought to improve the blade by "packing" the steel, if it is of use I could probably find some books with the details in.

It has recently been shown that what is useful is the several rotations of heating and cooling, this changes the grain structure of the steel and that hitting it with a hammer was doing nothing at all.

 

[robin wood]

google "edge packing"+blade for lots more info, some smiths still do it others don't http://www.navaching.com/forge/ozforging.html

 

[firecrest]

What about hot and cold foods? In hot countries people typically spice their food, it helps preserve it, but the enjoyment of hot food is culturally aquired, I doubt most people in hot countries nowadays spice food for preservation, just because theyve grown up with the taste and enjoy it.
Its the same with cold drinks. We all typically prefer our water to be cold, with ice preferably, yet this culturally learned. In the past this would have ensured our survival - lukewarm water breeds more bacteria where as the colder the water the less likley it is to contain harmful organisms.

 

[DoctorSpoon]

I imagine that for a while, there may have been a period where teapots were still easily crackable, but the reason people were doing it had become that they just learnt it that way. In which case they would have been doing something useful but not knowing why.

I think some avid tea drinkers would dispute this. They say that tea tastes better made with as close to boiling water as possible so if you warm the pot the water stays pretty hot when it first hits the tea. I don't drink the stuff myself, but I can believe the temperature of the water affects the taste of the brew. It certainly does with coffee which tastes better to me when it's made with water that's off the boil.

 

[xylaria]

I am not sure that bushcraft is your best area for finding the examples you want. Why? because most folk doing "bushcraft" have not learnt skills passed down for generations but relearned them often through the teachings of middle class intellectuals such as Ray Meersa nd other folk running bushcraft courses. This is very similar to the reinvention of the arts and crafts which occurred in the early 20th C in UK, Sweden and Japan.

I am sure if you talked to folk who hunt/fish and do outdoorsy stuff in Sweden you would get more of the passed down through the generations stuff complete with useless actions/folklore etc.

Ever since I can remember, i have foraged food. I watched my dad. With plants I didn't copy my dad as young child , he would look at a plant, pick a part, rub it and smell, then put it in is mouth. He would then give me piece to eat, i knew watch rather than to try it out myself even when I was very young. When I was older he would give verbal instruction on what I feeling for and smelling for. No primate would survive if its young randomly ate plants in the wild. It seems to be an innate instinct to wait until an adult eats to decide it something is edible, a 5 month old baby will fight to get to mums plate, but not put the same level of effort to eat the newspaper on her lap. However when foraging for wild plants, the verbal instruction was very important not making errors. I was old enough to follow simple instruction before could I pick plants. A 2 year old can pick bilberries, when they are placed in front of a bush, and it's demostrated that the dark ones taste good the red/green ones don't. I useally do this by letting them taste whats good.

I can't recall anything being a entirely useless action, there are plants that is prudent not eat now, my dad would eat stuff I wouldn't but then there is stuff I eat and he wouldn't.

 

[Christy]

I am sure if you talked to folk who hunt/fish and do outdoorsy stuff in Sweden you would get more of the passed down through the generations stuff complete with useless actions/folklore etc.

Except that often the useless folklore would be the finishing touch to safety. Tell a child it is dangerous to go near the well and they'll run out to find out what danger there really is. Anyone with kids will know the score.
Tell them there are evil gnomes that will pull them to the underworld and the child will usually stay away. Pretty useful in rural living communities before modern times.
No offense to religious people on board but humans seem hardwired to "some" form of spiritual belief. Waving the feather is a good example. If dad waved it before opening the box, it's gotta be part of the ritual.
And rituals are build up over long lines of experienced ancestors. Ergo, rituals give the best chance of survival.
Those that are daring either discover new inventive things or end their line of the genepool. Mimicing is safest and the ones that are prudent are those that can pass their genes right?


Ben, the example of the Swedish ham is an old story. It knows many shapes and forms, usually with a skillet or oven. BS to your student I'd say.

With how many children and primates has this experiment been conducted? Has it been repeated by others? If so, who and how often?
What were their findings? What were the criteria of the children and primates chosen for the experiment?
Which experiments exactly were conducted to come to the pretty spicy conclusion that children will always mimic parent's behavior? What were the circumstances of the experiment? The actual surroundings cos they will influence both parents and children plus primates as well?

If the opaque box is the only example the experiment holds no value. I'd be interested to learn more cos your assessment can be valuable but I need way more info then just the opaque box story.

 

[aelf]

I take children camping a lot and have been trying, without sucess, to think of a useful example. It got me thinking tho. Some of these unnessessary actions may be derived from ritual. Imagine an ancient hunter who rubs his ear before taking a shot, and gets his prey. He then assumes that rubbing his ear gave him the edge, or was lucky, and so continues to rub his ear before each shot. We see this in sportspeople who carry out ritual actions before competing as they think it will help them to win. They may tie their laces in a particular way, or do some strange hand movements before taking a shot, just like my imaginary hunter.

Just a thought
Aelf

ps, Just occured to me - I frequently prod the fire with a stick, even tho it burns very well without my interfering. Does that count?