Quackery or the real deal?

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
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Hampshire
Time for a robust debate! Alternative medicines - quackery or the real deal? Would we be better relying on conventional medicine rather than alternatives?

Personally, I'm a sceptic. Homeopathy makes absolutely no sense scientifically or logically, and has been disproved in independent test after independent test. And thinking about it critically, if a substance has been diluted beyond the point where the solution contains even one molecule of the "active ingredient", is it really logical to claim it retains a "sympathetic memory" of the original ingredient? After all, water will have come into contact with many "ingredients" over its lifetime (including sewage...)

Acupuncture? Ah - here I'm a "don't know". It seems to work in a number of roles - including blocking pain receptors. Not sure I buy into all the pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo associated with it, but in practice, it seems to work in certain circumstances.

Herbal medicine? Here's where it gets really interesting! Some of the "It's natural so it's good" arguments are clearly fallacious - try eating some deadly nightshade to see if natural stuff is necessarily good for you! But, on the other hand, many of the effective drug treatments now available - in monitored doses - are derived from traditional herbal remedies and sources. In short, science has identified plants used, extracted and purified the active ingredients, tested it for suitable dosages, and made it available to doctors. Its now called medicine... But recommending it for all sorts of illnesses and diseases? There I have a problem. By the way, can we leave out the rants about multinational pharmaceutical organisations, just for a change?:)

An article I read recently puts it better than I can, so will reproduce here.

[h=1]Herbal remedies: natural therefore safe?[/h][h=2]Herbal remedies are the most plausible of the CAMs so are they a safe alternative to conventional medicine?[/h]by Graham Lappin Ph.D © UK-Skeptics, 2010

It is true that some plants contain pharmacologically active substances and on that basis, perhaps there is some utility in herbal remedies. Closer examination however, reveals that not only are many of the claims of the herbalist very spurious, there are hidden and pernicious dangers.

Off all the Complementary and Alternative Medicines (CAM), from homeopathy to urine therapy, perhaps the one that might have some basis of rationality is herbal medicine. Plants have evolved an array of chemicals (referred to here as phytochemicals) many of which deter attack by insects, pathogens and grazing animals. Animals that feed on the plants and plant pathogens have co-evolved their own biochemical systems that neutralise these phytochemicals and then in their turn, plants evolved further chemical counter-measures and so the engine of evolution is driven.
Not surprisingly therefore, a number of phytochemicals have been shown to have strong pharmacological effects in humans. Indeed some have been developed into conventional medicines, perhaps the best-known example being digoxin, derived from species of Digitalis (foxglove), which is used to treat various heart conditions. Whilst CAMs such as homeopathy have no known mechanistic basis on which they can exert any therapeutic effect, herbal medicine on the other hand may just have a foot in reality.
Scratch at the herbalist patina of credibility however and a slightly different story is revealed. The herbalist will claim that particular plants or their extracts will alleviate certain medical conditions. For the most part, herbalism falls at this first rather low hurdle. Take Ginkgo (Ginkgo biloba) as an example. Ginkgo is one of the most widely used herbal remedies and it is claimed to treat amongst other things, Alzheimer’s, narrowing of the arteries, tinnitus, asthma, bronchitis, fatigue (whatever that really means) and multiple sclerosis. In the real world of science and medicine, claims for efficacy over such a wide range of essentially unrelated diseases rings sufficient alarm bells to drown out Saint Paul’s Cathedral. It might be argued that because a plant extract contains a wide range of phytochemicals that there are many active compounds present, providing a therapeutic spectrum towards a range of diseases. If that is true, then it raises another problem, one of side effects and we will come to that in a moment.
Is there any real evidence that Ginkgo comes up to its promises? I am not claiming to have conducted a comprehensive literature search for this article but Ginkgo has been subjected to decent clinical trials and the results have been pretty much in the negative. For example, no significant effect on cognitive decline and no significant effect on the treatment on sub-acute tinnitus
Another widely used herbal remedy is Saint John’s Wort (Hypericum perforatum). This herb is used primarily for the treatment of depression, typically in its milder forms and some antibiotic effects are claimed. Unlike Gingko however, in general use Saint John’s Wort is not associated with the treatment of a long list of ailments and there is some, albeit limited, evidence of efficacy
We are therefore left, at best, in a position where the effectiveness of certain herbal remedies cannot be ruled out but perhaps the magnitude of the effect is in some doubt. There is however, one very significant issue with herbal therapies that the herbalists may not necessarily dwell upon. There is no such thing as a free lunch and where there is pharmacologic action, there are by definition, toxic side effects. The reason why the homeopath can truthfully claim no side effects is simply because there are no effects in the first place from which off-target pharmacology can arise. This is not the case with herbal remedies – far from it. Proponents of CAM often bemoan that conventional drugs exhibit unpleasant or dangerous side effects but conveniently forget that herbal medicine is far from side effect free.
Driven by an evolutionary chemical warfare over eons, plants developed an array of phytochemicals and animals (including humans) developed counter measures to cope with this dietary chemical onslaught. There are a series of enzymes in the body that have evolved precisely to remove and “detoxify” (a word I hate, but it has a descriptive meaning here) a variety of foreign chemicals we encounter everyday. Whether these chemicals are natural or synthetic is a matter of extreme indifference to theses detoxification biochemical pathways and they will act equally upon toxic solanidine ingested from potatoes, as they will paracetamol taken for the headache after reading this article.
There are two types of detoxification enzyme that I want to mention here. There is a very diverse group of enzymes known as the Cytochrome P450’s that are generally considered the most important in the elimination of foreign chemicals from the body. Abbreviated to CYP P[SUB]450[/SUB], they add a single oxygen to a target molecule which in general terms makes the compound more water soluble to facilitate excretion. The individual CYP P[SUB]450[/SUB]s are identified by a numbering system based on the associated genes responsible for the synthesis of the enzyme. For example there is CYP 1A1 which amongst other things will metabolise certain compounds derived from tobacco smoke. The other class of enzymes add large water-soluble molecules such as sugars, certain amino acids and sulphate to foreign compounds, again increasing their water solubility to facilitate excretion. In addition to enzymes, there are also a number of transporter proteins in the body that either actively pump certain compounds into cells (influx pumps) or out the cell (efflux pumps). This all leads to a pretty complex array of biochemistry although scientists have a reasonably good handle on what’s going on – but much yet to learn and discover (thus keeping me in a job).
Many phytochemicals have evolved to perturb the biochemistry responsible for their metabolism and elimination from the body, perhaps not surprisingly. Herbal medicines therefore can be masters at messing up your “detoxification” mechanisms. (This is the exact opposite of what many herbalist will claim of course. They will claim that herbal remedies “detoxify the body”). The big problem with many herbal remedies therefore is that they either inhibit or induce the body’s ability to handle certain foreign compounds and then when the body is exposed, say to a prescription drug, serious toxic effects result. These are known in the business as herb-drug interactions.
Gingko, for example, has been shown to inhibit the liver’s ability to add a sugar know as glucuronide to certain chemicals. This glucuronidation mechanism is important in the elimination of several drugs, including paracetamol. Saint John’s Wort is the king of herb-drug interactions. Saint John’s Wort contains numerous pharmacologically active ingredients, including naphthodianthrones, phloroglucinol-derivatives and flavonoids. Saint John’s Wort contains a compound called hyperforin, widely associated with the induction of the Cytochrome P[SUB]450[/SUB] enzyme CYP 3A4.
CYP 3A4 is one the most important enzymes in the metabolism of foreign compounds in the body and by increasing its activity, a number of drugs are eliminated much faster than usual and hence their effectiveness is significantly reduced. In addition, at least one transporter protein, the efflux pump known as P-glycoprotein, is inhibited by extracts of Saint John’s Wort, which can lead to increased absorption of certain compounds. Repeated use of this particular herbal remedy really is the biochemical equivalent of the spanner in the works. For those that might claim herbal remedies are natural and therefore safe, a number of life-threatening interactions have been reported with Saint John’s Wort such as reduced blood concentrations of anti-infectives and anti-cancer drugs. In addition a number of unwanted pregnancies have occurred in women using oral contraceptives. For these reasons, Saint John’s Wort has been available in Ireland by prescription only since 2000.
The list of drugs affected by Saint John’s Wort is rather frightening and includes alprazolam, amitriptyline, atorvastatin, chlorzoxazone, ciclosporin, debrisoquine, digoxin, erythromycin, fexofenadine, gliclazide, imatinib, indinavir, irinotecan, ivabradine, mephenytoin, methadone, midazolam, nifedipine, omeprazole, oral contraceptives, quazepam, simvastatin, tacrolimus, talinolol, verapamil, voriconazole and warfarin. And if that were not enough, the active compound in Saint John’s Wort, hyperforin, can cause serious reactions in those with fair skin when exposed to sunlight
For completeness there are also many drug-drug interactions known as well. The difference here is that such interactions are studied thoroughly as a drug is developed and so there is some warning that adverse effects might arise. Herbal remedies are however, such a complex mixture and are variable from one source to the next that adverse effects can come at you by stealth. Even more worrying, herbalists vary rarely have any such knowledge and are largely unregulated. How many herbalists will check what other medication you might be on when buying Saint Jon’s Wort, for example. Moreover, in conventional medicine for anything other than life-saving compounds, if an interaction with CYP 3A4 is discovered, that will pretty much kill any chance of the drug being marketed. If the sale of Saint John’s Wort were regulated to the same rules as a conventional pharmaceuticals I have no doubt it would be banned and the anti-pharmaceutical brigade would be using it as a prime example of how evil these types of drugs are.
The underlining fallacy of herbal medicine is that feasibility is confused with fact. It’s like saying that because there is a likelihood of life existing elsewhere in the Universe, then this is proof of alien abduction. There is some evidence to support that some herbal remedies are efficacious as claimed but the potency generally seems weak and the side effects substantial. To me the claims of herbal medicine can be perniciously misleading.

 

brambles

Settler
Apr 26, 2012
777
88
Aberdeenshire
I've always thought that if homeopathy "practitioners" stand by what they preach, then they should be happy to be paid in water in which pound coins were once washed .....
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
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Hampshire
...and why something as simple as drinking water - ie homeopathy - can actually be deadly......

In July 2006, Sense about Science investigated claims that homeopaths had been giving dangerous information to consumers about malaria prevention. An undercover reporter asked for advice about anti-malarial preparations before going on a trip to a malaria-infested country. In ten out of ten cases, homeopaths recommended homeopathic products without suggesting that the person also consult a GP. As there are no ingredients in homeopathic preparations they cannot possibly offer protection against malaria.

Dr Ron Behrens of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine said: We've certainly had patients admitted to our unit with the malignant form of malaria who have been taking homeopathic remedies and without a doubt the reason that they were taking them and not effective drugs was the reason they had malaria.


 

Corfe

Full Member
Dec 13, 2011
399
2
Northern Ireland
Placebos can sometimes ameliorate symptoms. Believe it or not, the power of positive thinking is actually a documented phenomenon. But insofar as real medical effect goes: no. Homeopathy (sp?) has about as much clinical effect as shaking a rattle and baying to the moon.
 

lub0

Settler
Jan 14, 2009
671
0
East midlands
Like with most alternatives to conventional subject matters the nay sayers tend to only delve no further than the gimmicky headlines and sound bites they hear in the mass media and so base their prejudice on that alone.

Alternative health is a vast subject matter. There's a lot of crap and a lot of good, but as I don't feel like writing a 1000+ essay on the subject I will just say this. The only time I would ever go to a hospital is if it's any emergency i.e deep gash, broken leg, ect.
 

wattsy

Native
Dec 10, 2009
1,111
3
Lincoln
I think thats the same with most people to be fair, you wouldn't go for a pint of milk and a paper would you? Likewise, a trip to the hospital with 'the sniffles' would result in being told to see your GP, people only go to hospitals when they need care that cannot be provided themselves or by a GP i.e. deep gash, broken leg etc
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
3
Hampshire
Like with most alternatives to conventional subject matters the nay sayers tend to only delve no further than the gimmicky headlines and sound bites they hear in the mass media and so base their prejudice on that alone.

Alternative health is a vast subject matter. There's a lot of crap and a lot of good, but as I don't feel like writing a 1000+ essay on the subject I will just say this. The only time I would ever go to a hospital is if it's any emergency i.e deep gash, broken leg, ect.


Interesting! Anyone sceptical of alternative medicine is condemned as a "naysayer" who "delve no further than the gimmicky headlines and sound bites they hear in the mass media". Not exactly a rational defense of alternative medicine, methinks........

However, good to hear you go to get proper medical treatment when you are seriously ill:)
 

TallMikeM

Need to contact Admin...
Dec 30, 2005
574
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can't remember who wrote it, but the quote goes something like this: there's no such thing as alternative medicine, there's medicine that works and then there's stuff doesn't.
 

RonW

Native
Nov 29, 2010
1,580
131
Dalarna Sweden
There's plenty of alternative/homeopathic stuff around that does work and a lot that doesn't. There's plenty of regular medicine that does work and plenty that is designed to make money and has been shown to have a less desirable effect on your health.....
Dismissing either one without further thought is just plain dumb and shortsighted.
 

lub0

Settler
Jan 14, 2009
671
0
East midlands
There's plenty of alternative/homeopathic stuff around that does work and a lot that doesn't. There's plenty of regular medicine that does work and plenty that is designed to make money and has been shown to have a less desirable effect on your health.....
Dismissing either one without further thought is just plain dumb and shortsighted.

Well said, and I hope people take particular note of your comment regarding many medical treatments are nothing but money spinners i.e the cancer industry and vaccination industry being the two biggest yet most downright ineffective and harmful of them all.
And for those that didn't seem to understand my comment about only going to hospital for major injuries... but not for disease/illness/ailment treatments, which I thought you would be able to deduce given the context of the comment. The A&E department of a hospital is the only useful part of the entire building.
 
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JohnC

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Jun 28, 2005
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Well said, and I hope people take particular note of your comment regarding many medical treatments are nothing but money spinners i.e the cancer industry and vaccination industry being the two biggest yet most downright ineffective and harmful of them all.
And for those that didn't seem to understand my comment about only going to hospital for major injuries... but not for disease/illness/ailment treatments, which I thought you would be able to deduce given the context of the comment. The A&E department of a hospital is the only useful part of the entire building.

Im involved in clinical trials for cancer therapies and would respectfully suggest that you are mistaken about the ineffectiveness of modern cancer therapies.
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
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Hampshire
There's plenty of alternative/homeopathic stuff around that does work and a lot that doesn't. There's plenty of regular medicine that does work and plenty that is designed to make money and has been shown to have a less desirable effect on your health.....
Dismissing either one without further thought is just plain dumb and shortsighted.

Sorry Ron, but that tends to put them on a par, which is...........interesting!

I notice however that no-one has commented on the article I copied re St Johns Wort and Ginko, as just two examples. I suppose specifics are always difficult to deal with, when generalities and banalities are much more comforting! Like - for example - A&E being the only useful part of a hospital. I must tell that to my wife who had three kids in the maternity ward, my daughter who had her cataracts removed, my other daughter who had spinal surgery, my surgeon who replaced my hip.............................

maybe we'd all have done better with a glass of water....................
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
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I have been treated herbally when the Nhs said they could do nothing for my tendancy to develop kidney stones - result - next to no kidney stones.
I have been treated for tendonitis in both achiles tendons by both conventional physio and acupuncture (on the NHS) - the acupuncture worked where trad physio did not.
I have been treated - sucessfully - for clinical depression with both modern medicine (made it worse) Aromatherapy (such a success that I trained as an Aromatherapist) and with herbal (St Johns Wort as a maintainance dose) - only the modern drugs had side effects and no noticable improvement of the problem.
I am a trained Spiritual Healer (actually I am a qualified Tutor in Spiritual Healing) having found that I actually had various problems improve after I tried Spiritual and Reiki Healing. I have never charged for giving healing (not even for out of pocket expenses such as fuel to get to the Spiritual Centre I work out of) and none of those I have had healing from charge anything either.
I have suffered at the hands of the NHS in the way of mis diagnosis, drug treatments that made the situation worse, had scans that failed to show large kidney stones which then caused me renal colic (try it - you will like it :) ) etc
I have also relied on opiates for pain relief (originally a herbal treatment) and had good trad physio from an excellent practitioner.
There is good and bad on both sides of the fence so would not dismiss anything without good evidence - not from drug companies trying to flog their latest wonder cocktail but good honest empirical data!
 

ex-member BareThrills

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dec 5, 2011
4,461
3
United Kingdom
Homeopathy is complete twaddle imo, there is no debate :)

Acupuncture may be an alternative treatment here but in Asia its part of primary health care so id have to say its real. Once watch an interesting documentary where is was used in place of analgesia and seemd to work very well iirc. Herbal remedies im sure hold water to an extent but there are those that abuse people who believe tosh about almost anything.

So in summary my opinion is

Shoot all Homeopaths
Embrace Acupuncture
Be wary of herbalists trying to make you drink essence of sniksu bark or something else you never heard of
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
23,306
3,089
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Pembrokeshire
Homeopathy is complete twaddle imo, there is no debate :)

Acupuncture may be an alternative treatment here but in Asia its part of primary health care so id have to say its real. Once watch an interesting documentary where is was used in place of analgesia and seemd to work very well iirc. Herbal remedies im sure hold water to an extent but there are those that abuse people who believe tosh about almost anything.

So in summary my opinion is

Shoot all Homeopaths
Embrace Acupuncture
Be wary of herbalists trying to make you drink essence of sniksu bark or something else you never heard of

A friend of mine is a qualified pharmasist who refused to treat her kids with the poisons that the drug companies trot out but, as a qualified Homeopath treated all her family Homeopathically ...
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
3
Hampshire
Agree with you 100% John re empirical evidence.

Interesting article on empirical evidence here.

Drugs and medicines have empirical evidence to back up the claims that they are effective. They undergo rigorous testing and have to be scientifically proven to work, and that they are also safe to use. Any side effects that they cause are documented and understood and will be taken into consideration by the doctor prescribing the treatment.
Alternative treatments do not go through these procedures. Many have mystical thinking or perceived ancient wisdom behind them, but no strong scientific evidence to prove that they really work. Most evidence cited is individual anecdotal evidence, and where proper controlled studies have been done the results show that alternative treatments get the same results as the placebo control group. Some treatments, such as herbal remedies, may have biologically active compounds (i.e. drugs) in them but as they are not usually thoroughly tested it is not known what they are or what their side effects may be. Many are known to interfere with conventional treatments, St John's wort for example.
 

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