Protection/hunting piece

[Spacemonkey]

Why oh why are they banning shotguns then? I thought we had it bad enough here....

ps my dad was a very good shot with his 44 mag mod 29 S&W (with the 8" barrel), winning many comps with it. He would shoot in the classic single hand position while I would wuss out with a two handed approach. When he first got it it had the standard wood grips. We put some heavy loads through it and had the grips imprinted on our hands! You would get a nasty bruise on the web of your thumb if you weren't used to it. Rubber grips helped but it still hurt, but was still accurate with it. The problem is that you flinch as you squeeze. Not half as bad as the Martini Henry mind....

 

[arctic hobo]

Not entirely sure. It's odd, because from what I've seen the gun laws are more relaxed - certainly a greater percentage of people hunt! I know they fairly recently upped the minimum calibre because it was inhumane, but could you really class a shotgun as inhumane? H'm.

 

[ChrisKavanaugh]

Sorry, but very few people on the Guns and Ammo staff have been charged by a bear. I know, because I've shot with several of the staff. Anyone who thinks your going to take one shot and have it slide 6" from your feet stone cold dead while Meryll Streep quivers behind you has never stopped a bear. The standard strategy is to place a shot in the shoulder mass to mechanically stop the charge followed up with killing shots. I observed the post mortem on a Kodiak 'Rogue' bear that was finally killed by rangers. It was an older male, still in good health. They recovered 14 rounds ranging fom .308 caliber 220 grains to .375caliber 350 grains. Not one was a potentially mortal wound, merely enough to put the poor animal in constant pain. A .30 class bullet must have exceptional sectional density. A .308 Winchester simply cannot handle 200 grain bullets which are the baseline bear stopper. This is one of many reasons I chose the .303 Your carry options are a carbine, again a SMLE 'jungle' or sporterised standard rifle, Marlins in .45-70 or the more expensive takedown versions which are often a custom aftermarket effort. Bears have been stopped by everything from a 9 shot .22 handgun at sub point blank range- the gun and arm were in the bear's mouth to massive best grade doubles in .600 Nitro express. These are exceptions. My Alaska carry were a .30-06 with 200 grainers and a SMLE with 215 Grainers. I am blessed in never having to murder a bear after invading his home. I've put a few rounds at their toes and felt bad. Read about them, respect them and chances are they'll reciprocate.

 

[Stuart]

I know that this is no firearms forum, but I'm looking to get into the market for a small arm that will act primarily as a protection piece for bears but could at a pinch be used for hunting, if only at short range. I will want to be taking it around various countries with doubtless differing laws and I don't want anything huge because of weight and the impression it creates - pack stowable would be ideal if at all possible.

all this talk of big calibers for stopping bears is rubbish, if you are carrying a rifle for hunting it doesnt matter what size caliber rifle you are carrying firing it into the air will scare away a bear.

if you are not hunting then you dont need a rifle at all, there are many purpose built bear deterents on the market that will be much more effective than a rifle.

if you dont mean to hunt then you dont need a firearm simply for bears, as has already been pointed out understanding bear behaviour will be far far more useful for avoiding problems than carrying a gun

please remember that this is not a survivalist forum, the question is revelant as person posting lives in norway and so may come in contact with bears, but this is not the site for the discussion of firarms

 

[arctic hobo]

all this talk of big calibers for stopping bears is rubbish, if you are carrying a rifle for hunting it doesnt matter what size caliber rifle you are carrying firing it into the air will scare away a bear.

Was wondering when someone was going to say that

please remember that this is not a survivalist forum, the question is revelant as person posting lives in norway and so may come in contact with bears, but this is not the site for the discussion of firarms

I'm very flattered, but I don't actually live in Norway Give me a year, and I'll get you a different answer If you got that from the sire in my profile, sorry, it was a mischievious friend and is now corrected.
Is the question too off-topic? If it's an issue I don't mind taking it to a gun forum or something (if anyone can knows a good one?). I mentioned it only as for hunting (seeing as this is the Fair Game forum), and although I misled people into thinking I meant to shoot bears, I certainly didn't mean that I intended to shoot other people in a "survival" situation!!
I *cough* have some very strong opinions about survivalists anyway *growls*
Anyway, on topic - I do like the idea of the Lee Enfield carbine. .303 seems a good calibre as far as laws are concerned, and having used a Mk1 and liked it it would not be anything too new. One question though - reports of severe inaccuracy? Are these true - seems to be some debate about it?

 

[ChrisKavanaugh]

Let me answer your question without us getting booted off the forum The carbine underwent several wieght reducing modifications along with the obvious shortening of stock and barrel. The junction between barrel breach and receiver was machined to reduce metal mass. There is a gunsmithing term for this joint, but I cannot recall it. The important issue is it periodically causes an occassional 'flyer'- usually in a long,fast string of shots from the 10 round magazine from the various harmonics of barrel to forward reciever to forend vibrating out of sync. Think of a pianno that hits a bad c sharp in the middle of a otherwise flawless Chopin. Target shooters and users of fine commercial rifles pick up a battle rifle and bemoan the accuracy. They forget these are weapons that must endure battlefield conditions, indifferent cartridge quality and less than perfect cleaning- Bushcraft kit! The last SMLE's had superb triggers,no longer pivoted on the guard, excellent sights and bolts with adjustable headspace. These would be my choice for a field piece. I entered a target shoot with mine in standard configuration and dropped metal targets @ 300 meters with the best of them. You can also order australian made Woodliegh Rhino bullets in 215 grain which are superb. I watched a programme on the African rangers protecting the elephants and rhinos from poachers. They all packed SMLEs!

 

[Tantalus]

all very interesting i am sure, but not really relevant to any "British bushcrafting"

Tant

 

[Spacemonkey]

Although SMLE's are in my mind quite accurate and do doubt soldier proof-which is far better in the field than something that can hit a bull at 1000metres from prone, what you need is one of Troy Hurtubise's Bear Suits!!!

 

[ChrisKavanaugh]

An air rifle was carried on the Lewis and Clark expedition and british ships used pneumatic anti aircraft batteries in WW2. Both dispatched bear and Stuka. If air rifles and archery equipment are valid discussions in Bushcraft avoiding another system for planting projectiles into target or living creature is mere pandering to political correctness. The initial post was a valid question. Nobody posted links to the National Front or offered unassembled STEN gun parts kits. UK bushcrafters eventually venture beyond Sherwood Forest and may experience scenarios where firearms are a valid part of Bushcrafting. I only offer real world experience with the caveat that rational precautions avoid most problems. But, in the real world there are individuals who don't read these forums and will ignore bear spray, warning shots with a .22 , talking in soothing tones with non agressive body language or flashing a WWF membership card. My idiot friend Timothy Treadwell learned this the hard way, with the further deaths of 2 of the animals he professed to love. Sometimes rule 303 is valid.

 

[Doc]

I read about the Treadwell case. Very sad, and, I guess, preventable.

I'm astonished the Norwegians would ban shotguns as hunting is a very popular pastime.

I have fired many hundreds of rounds through a Lee Enfield and can vouch for it's reliability. My father in laws deer rifle is a Lee Enfield with a Parker Hale stock coversion. At one time this was a popular deer rifle in Scotland. Nowadays the .270 appears to be popular amongst my friends who stalk.

Thinking about weight, I do wonder if a pepper spray (where legal) would be a preferable option if travelling on foot.

 

[ChrisKavanaugh]

The problem with pepper sprays are proximity. You need a relatively close bear to have effect, with the danger shifting winds or even heavy rain may divert the aerosals- sometimes right back into your own face. I was pepper sprayed during a redwood protest. It ahem, had a rather unfortunate result to the security guard who used it ( without license or legal cause as determined in court) Large carnivores; bears,wolves,MAN share one adaptive strategy, that of differing personalities from an Alpha Male to the Omega. I had the honour of meeting Bart the Bear once, A most loving and genteel creature undeserving of ursus horriblus. Then there was a common black bear wieghing in at 150 lbs-wet. It jumped our mule string and took 3 kicks from a dominant Molly, ignored 3 warning shots from winchester carbines and finally succumbed to a ranger's 12 guage shotgun.

 

[Hoodoo]

if you are carrying a rifle for hunting it doesnt matter what size caliber rifle you are carrying firing it into the air will scare away a bear.

I'd say if you are carrying a 22 in grizzly bear country and are attacked, the best thing to do is hold it to your temple and pull the trigger.

 

[Justin Time]

found this report about Timothy Treadwell. Seems it took 11 shots from Ranger's pistol before the bear died. Glad we don't have bears wandering about Glamorgan.. well I wouldn't mind seeing them.. from a distance. I presume of course that the rangers are well trained in the use of the pistol... but perhaps the bear wasn't well trained in knowing how to respond to gunfire!

 

[Carcajou Garou]

Off topic response, using a pistol to sort out a bear when there are more powerful tool besides you is so wrong on so many levels
just a thought