Protection/hunting piece

[arctic hobo]

I know that this is no firearms forum, but I'm looking to get into the market for a small arm that will act primarily as a protection piece for bears but could at a pinch be used for hunting, if only at short range. I will want to be taking it around various countries with doubtless differing laws and I don't want anything huge because of weight and the impression it creates - pack stowable would be ideal if at all possible.

 

[Wayne]

I like that Chris. i knows its against the rules but.......

i think you would have more trouble carryng and storing a firearm than you would benefit.

Also the large brown bears are likely not to be stopped by a small gun. I complete understanding of Bear behaviour, attack avoidance, etc might be a better approach.

How many times in Norway have you seen a bear?

 

[leon-1]

Wayne is correct, I have sent you a PM with what I know of.

This is a very big BUT and that is you will require a rifle with at least 0.308" and they don't really make these small, apart from scout rifles and these can be quite pricey and are not really common place.

 

[Ogri the trog]

I read on www.rimfirecentral.com a while ago that anything like a .22 firearm will just really annoy a bear. So larger bore would be the better for this single application, but you're going to have the devils own job of taking it from one country to the next and security would be a nightmare.
From what little I know, letting bears know that you are around, and letting them get out of your way is the better policy.
As to hunting in different countries, it might be better to seek out a guide who is well versed in the local hunting laws and rely on his skills rather than run the risk of falling foul of some local bye-law that could land you in a whole world of trouble. Pack-stowable in your view might be concealed weapon in someone elses.

All the best in your quest, but I fell this is a very tall order.

Ogri the trog

 

[arctic hobo]

Sorry, I was interrupted while posting that. What I was going to put is that I wouldn't shoot a bear, but have on the two occasions (actually in Russia) that bears have been over inquisitive, firing a shot into the air has just scared them off. Especially since the thread on pepper spray I'd avoid shooting them - especially since seeing how big they are! The object is really to have an effective (and humane) hunting weapon that doesn't have to be over the shoulder all the time (I know how people get edgy if they think you're hunting on their land, never mind edgy if you're just carrying it around town!), that can also be used to scare bears or anything else that might constitute a threat.

 

[Spacemonkey]

I recall reading in an old GunMart mag many, many moons ago (BRM-Before Ray Mears hit tv...) that some chap had made an airgun that fired 9mm bullets as pellets. It took something like 200 pumps and it would have the muzzle energy of a 9mm long barreled firearm! It was a bit of a beast, but the idea was that being an airgun it was technically a lot easier to ship across borders with less restrictions. Nowadays, I can't imagine getting away with it. If you only want to scare it then how about a blank firer? The 8mm semis are good enough for that I would imagine. You'd still get grief at airports though!!

 

[Doc]

Beretta make a very light twelve bore O/U shotgun - and in the UK you can hold it on shotgun certificate of course. Excellent for wildfowl and small ground game. Loaded with slugs I would imagine it would be as good as anything else on a bear at close range. (NB - opinion based on knowledge of ballistics/forensic medicine rather than practical experience!!) There are legal problems with 12 gauge slug ammunition in the UK - not sure about in other countries.

 

[Spacemonkey]

One of their other companies, Stoeger, do a synthetic stock recoil op semi for £550. You could pop SSG shot in it. It's very lightweight too.

 

[bambodoggy]

Chris,

You'd have a nightmare getting any firearm past most boarder points and be in a great deal of trouble if caught in any... I'd suggest crow-scarer bangers for want you wanted to use the rifle for (except the hunting bit obviously) but nowadays you'd most likely get in trouble for carrying those too.

Found this site about travelling in bear country....read past the pepper spray bit and there's heaps of useful advice there....

http://www.udap.com/safety.htm

Hope that's useful buddy,

Bam.

 

[Ogri the trog]

I recall reading in an old GunMart mag many, many moons ago (BRM-Before Ray Mears hit tv...) that some chap had made an airgun that fired 9mm bullets as pellets. It took something like 200 pumps and it would have the muzzle energy of a 9mm long barreled firearm! It was a bit of a beast, but the idea was that being an airgun it was technically a lot easier to ship across borders with less restrictions. Nowadays, I can't imagine getting away with it. If you only want to scare it then how about a blank firer? The 8mm semis are good enough for that I would imagine. You'd still get grief at airports though!!

...then perhaps a visit to www.barnespneumatic.com is in order

Ogri the trog

 

[Doc]

A lot of countries do allow you to bring in sporting weapons such as shotguns without too much hassle. It is recognised that sportsmen visit in order to shoot game. Of course you need to organise the paperwork in advance, and check with the airline.

 

[ChrisKavanaugh]

I do not count myself an expert, but I have spent time in Kodiak Alaska, Churchill Canada and of course California, which has a grizz on the flag and sadly only black bears left. I've had the honour of talking with Doug Peacock and the sad memory of trying to talk sense into Timothy Treadwell. Shotguns work, but my prefered carry is very unamerican. I'm talking your fine SMLE in .303, with the so called 'jungle carbine' an almost perfect carry option. The truth is working people in bear country simply don't have the financial resources for a best grade Rigby in .375 Holland and Holland. The .303 in the standard 174 grain round, or even better superb 215 grain has been a standard moose and bear stopper over countless cabin fireplace mantles. You have the happy combination of a peep sight, 10 rounds ( reducable to 5 where required by aftermarket magazines) and a action so fast the germans often thought they were under machinegun barrages in the Great War. The SMLE is also a rugged fieldpiece that will keep working when more finely toleranced rifles surrender. That, and the former reaches of the Empire has left thousands, and the ammunition still in use throughout the world. In Finland and the former Soviet Union and east bloc countries the Moisin rifle is another old trooper that is incredibly robust and chambers a round similar in ballistics to a .308 or 7.62x52 Nato. Again, the hunters of these regions carry this rifle daily. Finn rifles are in better condition, but have a tigter bore and using the more plentifull russsian ammo makes for stiff recoil and bolt operation. There are a few combination rifles, ie the Baikal in 12 guage x .308. But these are single shots and rather awkward affairs. In the end though knowing the bears will eliminate 99.99% of any potential misunderstandings. John Muir is quoted as saying " In the next race war I'm siding with the bears."

 

[pumbaa]

A guy at our shooting club has a .50 pneumatic air rifle with oddles of ft/lbs to it on his ticket , it will put a half inch pellet 6 in into a tree ! At colse range with out a silencer it makes quite a bang , its just a litle big for bunnys !
Pumbaa

 

[Buckshot]

There's an article in last months Shooting Sports about an airgun firing a .38 round ball for close range african hunting!
Why? Well I suppose why not?
Interms of a bear scarer, I would say some sort of blank firer would be better. Even a light gun gets heavy after you've carried it for a week. The chances of using it are slight. If you want something that will stop a bear you're talking a serious calibre which you wont be able to shoot rabbits with - well not for the pot anyway. So you're talking about carrying 10lbs of metal for a very specific task thats unlikely to be needed!
If handguns were legal here I'd suggest a decent Ruger or something but....

At the end of the day I suppose if you really want to carry something for peace of mind and you're prepared to pay the price (wieght) for that then I'd suggest either a shotgun with slug or a large (.308+) rifle.

Cheers

mark

 

[flibb]

You can get combined shotgun rifle combos, they are called drillings. Think a Russian company was making some in modern calibres, remember seeing an articel in a shooting mag a few years ago, I did look at a 12 bore / 22 combo myself a while ago, mainly as a curiosity. Down side is going to be weight.

 

[Buckshot]

You can get combined shotgun rifle combos, they are called drillings. Think a Russian company was making some in modern calibres, remember seeing an articel in a shooting mag a few years ago, I did look at a 12 bore / 22 combo myself a while ago, mainly as a curiosity. Down side is going to be weight.

And having to carry 2 lots of ammo - which I spose is weight as well - sorry

 

[flibb]

Actually a double rifle would be better, 22lr or mag and something bigger. .22 would have the best weight per possibility of having food. Having said that .22 and 12 bore with solid slug would be the best all rounder, plenty of .22, a few solid slug and a few normall carts. Would also be a lot lighter than other methods. This solution would easilly go on a section 1 and should be relatively easy to take abroad, paperwork and legality in destination withstanding. Did look at a dounle 12 with .22 underneath on a website earlier.

 

[arctic hobo]

Thanks for the help folks. Researching firearm laws I see Norway are banning shotguns very soon Since a large part of use would be in that country, I guess I'd have to get a rifle. Not knowing a huge amount about them, is it possible to get a rifle I can dissassemble to get in my pack?
Weight is not a problem for me by the way. Any more suggestions would be very helpful

 

[Oakleaf]

PC being silly, so apologies if I tread ground covered by others.

First problem is partly semantics - the phrase 'bear defence gun ( sic )' means one thing to the general populace, but something specific for a gun nut.

In the specific sense, it conjours an image of defeating a charging bear at ranges where his halitosis is a major threat The fabled Guns and Ammo magazine ran an article several years back - to test the ultimate bear stopper. Think they used a 44 magnum Ruger, 45-70 or 444 Marlin lever action and a custom Remington 870 in 12 bore. All arguable for that task, but fairly limited for much else.

By simple laws of physics, anything ballistically big enough to blunt a bear is going to be a hard kicking piece and require some dedication to use effectively. If you are a weapon user rather than enthusiast, there is the real risk that you will not develope sufficient skill/ muscle memory to deploy the piece effectively in the gravest extreme.

It is equally hard to quantify 'general hunting'. For bunny bashing etc a .22 is hard to beat, easy to carry and light weight ammo. But much bigger - certain deer size animals and it is inhumanely underpowered.

Sorry to hear about the shotgun legislation - that is the most general use item you could go for. 12 or 20 bore slug would be a reasonable close range bear medicine. With shot or even a sub calibre insert it would do rabbits on up. A reasonable side by side type would also break neatly in two for transport.

Legal side I do not have much knowledge of travelling - but understand most the rest of the world is relatively easy - compared to when you get back to UK! EU countries should be straight forward with European FA pass.

Shotguns require a certificate - but currently much less hassle than a firearm certificate. Solid slug for a shotgun would however require a firearm certificate to possess in the UK.

Unless you intend to shoot in the uk at all, any heavy calibre firearm is going to be an administrative nightmare. In the UK expanding ammunition is prohibited - with exemption for specific use - like deer stalking. The police will decline you authority to purchase expanding ammunition in the UK for use on big game overseas.

If you have a specific country that you will visit, maybe worth checking law and possibly keeping a suitable weapon in country.

Outwith my experience, but how do these bear pepper spray devices perform? Are they legal in the countries you wish to visit? I would only finally echo previous contributor - firearms aside, best route is a crackjack routine for bear avoidance and conflict de-escalation - even if backed up by a fistful of firepower.

Good luck.

 

[arctic hobo]

It is equally hard to quantify 'general hunting'. For bunny bashing etc a .22 is hard to beat, easy to carry and light weight ammo. But much bigger - certain deer size animals and it is inhumanely underpowered.

I'd want something big enough for deer - which as you say seems to make it a lot harder!

Shotguns require a certificate - but currently much less hassle than a firearm certificate. Solid slug for a shotgun would however require a firearm certificate to possess in the UK.

Unless you intend to shoot in the uk at all, any heavy calibre firearm is going to be an administrative nightmare. In the UK expanding ammunition is prohibited - with exemption for specific use - like deer stalking. The police will decline you authority to purchase expanding ammunition in the UK for use on big game overseas.

I know it's a problem - I was pretty annoyed when I found out the shotgun law. I might have to justify on grounds of stalking in the UK. Laws I guess I will just around. Thanks for your help. What sort of rifle would you suggest, by UK restrictions?