Pros/Cons of the different steels used in Mora knives?

[chem_doc]

Can anyone fill me in on the pros & cons of the three steels used in the Frosts Mora Knives?

Carbon Steel, stainless, and the tri-flex....

Sharpening, care, ability to get a spark going with a Fire Steel with its back edge... all that stuff.

I'd be interested in hearing about any/all thoughts on what steel makes the best bush knife.

Thanks,

Doc

 

[Mungo]

This web page describes the steel in the Mora knives - very interesting too.

Cheers,

Mungo

 

[John Fenna]

I prefer the carbon Mora, - easy to sharpen, good sparks, easy care in most circs.
For salt water environments - stainless all the way, just for ease of care, though they are OK to sharpen and give good sparks as well..
I just like carbon best...

 

[leon-b]

I asked this a while ago when i was buying a clipper.

Stainless:
Easy to care for, Holds an edge well, Harder to sharpen than the carbon, Casts the same amount of sparks as the carbon

Carbon:
Easyer to sharpen, needs more looking after, casts sparks well

I opted for the stainless as i live near the sea
leon

 

[Mungo]

This web page describes the steel in the Mora knives - very interesting too.

Cheers,

Mungo

I personally have the laminated one - love it!

Cheers,

Mungo

 

[TheGreenMan]

Can anyone fill me in on the pros & cons of the three steels used in the Frosts Mora Knives?

Carbon Steel, stainless, and the tri-flex....

Sharpening, care, ability to get a spark going with a Fire Steel with its back edge... all that stuff...

Hi Doc,

None of the laminated Frosts blades will produce a spark on a firesteel, nor will the differentially heat treated Triflex blades. All types of ‘Mora’ knife made by both manufacturers can be honed to an outstandingly sharp edge, partly due to the relative thinness of the blades (incidentally, the cutting edge of a thin blade may feel sharper, but it may be no sharper than a thick blade). I particularly like the wooden handled type (with no finish on the handle) intended for carving seasoned wood. The edge is somewhat harder on these, than the other types made by Frosts and K J Eriksson, and the blade is a little thicker than most of the others offered in the various and respective ranges

If Ragnar’s information on the types of steel used by both companies is correct, and I have no reason to believe that his information is incorrect, as Ragnar knows his blade ‘onions’, the steels – 1095 and 12C27 -, are highly regarded and are used by many manufacturers to produce more expensive knives.

For sharpening ‘in the field’ a DC3 or DC4 diamond/ceramic whetstone and a bare leather strop will get any of the Mora blades in tip-top condition. Alternatively, you could also go for abrasive papers for a very light field kit:
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11571

If you want to go ‘fancy’ with freehand sharpening (‘fancy’ is fun and instructive, ‘freehand’ teaches you skill), then many might suggest to go the Japanese waterstone>strop with polishing compound>bare leather strop, route. This option is more expensive, but it will get a blade very, very sharp indeed (as will the abrasive paper route, if you take the abrasives to a very fine grit).

I understand that many of the sharpening systems are excellent, but I have no personal experience of these.

...what steel makes the best bush knife...

That, in my opinion, is something of a non-sequitur, and rather like asking, ‘what’s the best kind of grind for a bush knife’. Again, in my opinion, the only correct answer to both those questions is, ‘there’s no such thing’. There is only intended purpose(s), cost, and personal taste (Of course, knowledge and experience can play an important role, too). The choice of a blade, or cutting tool, is largely governed by these three (five ) considerations, and what kind of compromises one is prepared to make, in respect to a multi-purpose utility knife, or not at all, in respect to a knife intended for a single specific purpose. It usually boils down to ‘horses for courses’ or find the best compromise for a multi-purpose knife, that one can, for use in any given environment.

However, metalurgy is a facinating subject, if one is minded to dig a little deeper.

Anyway, that’s more than enough pomposity from me…at least for this morning

Best regards,
Paul.

 

[John Fenna]

Hi Doc,

None of the laminated Frosts blades will produce a spark on a firesteel
Erm - my laminated Mora does......not as many as with some blades but enough to get a fire going......

 

[TheGreenMan]

Hi Doc...

None of the laminated Frosts blades will produce a spark on a firesteel...

Erm - my laminated Mora does......not as many as with some blades but enough to get a fire going......

Clearly, the last of my five ‘considerations’ has come into play, here

I wonder which one of us is experiencing an untypical experience, or, if there is no typical experience?

Much obliged to you, anyhow, John

Cheers,
Paul.

 

[chem_doc]

That, in my opinion, is something of a non-sequitur, and rather like asking, ‘what’s the best kind of grind for a bush knife’. Again, in my opinion, the only correct answer to both those questions is, ‘there’s no such thing’. There is only intended purpose(s), cost, and personal taste (Of course, knowledge and experience can play an important role, too). The choice of a blade, or cutting tool, is largely governed by these three (five ) considerations, and what kind of compromises one is prepared to make, in respect to a multi-purpose utility knife, or not at all, in respect to a knife intended for a single specific purpose. It usually boils down to ‘horses for courses’ or find the best compromise for a multi-purpose knife, that one can, for use in any given environment.

However, metalurgy is a facinating subject, if one is minded to dig a little deeper.

And that is *exactly* why I asked the question. Had I just asked, "Describe the steel in the Mora knives..." I would (probably) get stock answers.

I asked that somewhat provocative question to hear *why* people loved/hated/tolerated the steels in the blades.... if that makes sense.

And thanks for the detailed answer. I'm trying to learn as much as I can, and this site is just chock full 'o people who know more than I ever will!

Doc

 

[TheGreenMan]

And that is *exactly* why I asked the question. Had I just asked, "Describe the steel in the Mora knives..." I would (probably) get stock answers...

Glad I could help.

...I asked that somewhat provocative question to hear *why* people loved/hated/tolerated the steels in the blades.... if that makes sense...

Absolutely, it made sense. Useful answers often spring from interesting questions.

...And thanks for the detailed answer...

You're welcome.

...this site is just chock full 'o people who know more than I ever will!...

I doubt that, and especially not, when it comes to chemistry

Anywho, here's some more reading that may be of interest -

Some detailed and interesting opinions regarding Mora knives from Old Jimbo:
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/mora.html
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/mora2.html
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/mora3.html
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/lsm.html

And a thoughtful article by Hoodoo:
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/articles/t1/outdoorsknife1.htm

The above ‘desperados’ in lighter mood (a cautionary tale if every there was one, for the budding knife designer!):
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/hjsb.html

If you scroll down the page to the Links section, you’ll find some scholarly articles on the subject of metallurgy relating to blades:
http://www.mse.iastate.edu/who-we-are/people/emeritus-professors/john-verhoeven.html

(The PDF at the above page titled ‘Experiments on Knife Sharpening’ is available to download from BCUK also: http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads/file-downloads/file-downloads.html)

And some very useful reviews of outdoor knives, including the Mora type, here:
http://outdoors-magazine.com/s_topic.php?id_rubrique=22
.
Cheers,
Paul.

 

[Zammo]

I thought I was buying the Carbon Frosts Mora (which it was sold as) but ended up with the Laminate one. It is very sharp and produces good sparks but I was a bit disappointed when I soaked it in vinegar and it created slight bubbling on the blade.

 

[demographic]

Where does this idea that stainless doesn't cast sparks from a firesteel (ferrocium rod) come from?
Are people confusing ferrocium firesteel rods with real flint?

I am fairly sure that the Light My Fire Swedish FireSteel strikers are chrome plated, whats the main ingredient that causes steel to be regarded as "stainless"?

You got it, chrome.

It comes down to the sharp square edge of the blade spine and not the metal used in its manufacture (within reason as a lead blade wouldn't do well).

I have a stainless knife that casts perfectly acceptable sparks of a ferrocium firesteel.

 

[TheGreenMan]

I thought I was buying the Carbon Frosts Mora (which it was sold as) but ended up with the Laminate one. It is very sharp and produces good sparks....

OK, this is interesting. We have two laminated blades that will spark on a firesteel and one that won’t. It would be interesting to know exactly which models each of us are referring to (John, you, and me) And more feedback from other members might be useful to see if a pattern emerges at all (Apologies, I appear to have slipped into ‘nurd mode’)

I’m referring to the blade that is common to both the Frosts Mora 137 and SL-1 (same knife, different sheaths, as listed on Ragnar’s site). I’ve only ever had these Frosts laminated blades, and perhaps I’ve come unstuck by extrapolating from that, that all Frosts laminated blades are ‘equal’……….I just checked mine, of the two I still have in my possession, one won’t spark the other produces feeble sparks.

Anyone else like to share?

...but I was a bit disappointed when I soaked it in vinegar and it created slight bubbling on the blade.

When you mention that ‘…it created slight bubbling on the blade…’ do you mean the steel has ‘bubbled’, or that during the etching process bubbles formed on the surface and then rose up through the vinegar? If you meant that bubbles formed on the surface of the steel and then rose up through the vinegar, then this is normal. A similar process takes place when engravers etch copper plates in an acid solution. The traditional way to prevent the gas that forms on the surface of the copper plate which retards the etching process (because the gas bubbles prevent the acid solution from contacting the surface of the plate, resulting in an uneven etch) was to periodically brush the bubbles away with a bird quill.

Similarly, during the blade etch, it might be a good idea to remove the blade from the vinegar from time to time (the formation of gas on the surface of the steel is more pronounced if the vinegar is hot). This would allow the gas to escape into air, and give you the opportunity to wipe off the black-ish coating that forms on the surface of the steel, as this dark coloured substance will also retard the etch.

I’ve no idea what the gas is that forms on the steel, or what the dark coloured gunk is.

Cheers,
Paul.

 

[TheGreenMan]

Where does this idea that stainless doesn't cast sparks from a firesteel (ferrocium rod) come from?...

As far as a I know, neither Frosts or Eriksson make a laminated stainless blade.

Cheers,
Paul.

 

[John Fenna]

Erm - all that is on the blade of my laminated blade is "MORA made in Sweden"
I am not sure if it is a Frost an Erikson or a Jonsson....sorry!

 

[Hoodoo]

OK, this is interesting. We have two laminated blades that will spark on a firesteel and one that won’t. It would be interesting to know exactly which models each of us are referring to (John, you, and me) And more feedback from other members might be useful to see if a pattern emerges at all (Apologies, I appear to have slipped into ‘nurd mode’)

I’m referring to the blade that is common to both the Frosts Mora 137 and SL-1 (same knife, different sheaths, as listed on Ragnar’s site). I’ve only ever had these Frosts laminated blades, and perhaps I’ve come unstuck by extrapolating from that, that all Frosts laminated blades are ‘equal’……….I just checked mine, of the two I still have in my possession, one won’t spark the other produces feeble sparks.

Anyone else like to share?



When you mention that ‘…it created slight bubbling on the blade…’ do you mean the steel has ‘bubbled’, or that during the etching process bubbles formed on the surface and then rose up through the vinegar? If you meant that bubbles formed on the surface of the steel and then rose up through the vinegar, then this is normal. A similar process takes place when engravers etch copper plates in an acid solution. The traditional way to prevent the gas that forms on the surface of the copper plate which retards the etching process (because the gas bubbles prevent the acid solution from contacting the surface of the plate, resulting in an uneven etch) was to periodically brush the bubbles away with a bird quill.

Similarly, during the blade etch, it might be a good idea to remove the blade from the vinegar from time to time (the formation of gas on the surface of the steel is more pronounced if the vinegar is hot). This would allow the gas to escape into air, and give you the opportunity to wipe off the black-ish coating that forms on the surface of the steel, as this dark coloured substance will also retard the etch.

I’ve no idea what the gas is that forms on the steel, or what the dark coloured gunk is.

Cheers,
Paul.

Okeedoke, I'll jump into this fray. My 137 does not throw sparks. I checked it out, though, with the handlens and there is quite a little bevel along the edges of the spine. Methinks this might be the culprit.

 

[TheGreenMan]

Erm - all that is on the blade of my laminated blade is "MORA made in Sweden"
I am not sure if it is a Frost an Erikson or a Jonsson....!

Ah, it slipped my mind that I have a couple of those, at least, what sound like those. The trademark ‘MORA’ in a rectangular box, with

'MADE IN
SWEDEN’

[lettering without quotes]

to the right of it, and the stick tang has been peened over a washer at the pommel end of the handle (would post a pic, but I’ve not digital camera)? Gee, I hope I’ve got something rare!

They still don’t produce that many sparks, but certainly better than the laminated ones of known origin I’ve got.

By the way, ordered some of those Look What We Found pouched meals you reviewed in the magazine, last week. Cracking find, thanks, can’t stop eating them.

Cheers,
Paul.

 

[Mungo]

My Frosts Mora is a laminated blade - I think the inner layer is hard, somewhat brittle carbon tool steel, with a hardness of 62. It is clad with softer, more flexible layers of carbon steel.

I have been trying to figure out the exact chemistry of black iron oxide, but suffice it say, black rust is a form of iron oxide, but due to the physical characteristics, is tends to exclude further oxygen from rusting the steel because it makes a smoother, more regular coating. Red iron oxide pits and expands, peeling off and allowing for further rusting to occur.

When I put my Mora blade in a dilute vinegar solution, the steel turned dark grey/black. I think having this coating precludes the red rust from appearing.

Anyway - all I know is that after I use my Mora, I either dry the blade before putting it back in the sheath, or give it a quick wipe with some oil - either vegetable, mineral, WD-40 etc...

Cheers,

Mungo

 

[TheGreenMan]

Okeedoke, I'll jump into this fray. ...

...and thanks.

...My 137 does not throw sparks. I checked it out, though, with the handlens and there is quite a little bevel along the edges of the spine. Methinks this might be the culprit.

Interesting. I just checked one of my 137s, and I could see with the hand lens, and where I had used the firesteel, it has rolled the edge of the spine badly. Had a quick session with a couple of mill files ('second cut' and a 'smooth'), got the edges back to square, tried again on the firesteel and...nothing. It would seem that at least on the ones I have, the steel used for the outer layers of the laminate are just too soft to get a spark.

Cheers,
Paul.

 

[Hoodoo]

...and thanks.



Interesting. I just checked one of my 137s, and I could see with the hand lens, and where I had used the firesteel, it has rolled the edge of the spine badly. Had a quick session with a couple of mill files ('second cut' and a 'smooth'), got the edges back to square, tried again on the firesteel and...nothing. It would seem that at least on the ones I have, the steel used for the outer layers of the laminate are just too soft to get a spark.

Cheers,
Paul.

Interresting. I have had similar problems with laminated Helles in that after sharpening the spine, I would only get mild sparking.