PC or Mac?

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iamasmith

Forager
Aug 12, 2009
128
1
London
So, Mac all the way then..

All new Macs ship with iLife (iPhoto is freakin awesome ^^) which gives you your range of home and hobbyist apps and they give you a trial on iWork which gives you Word Processing, Spreadsheet and Presentations. It's so compatible with Microsoft's invented standards that I never felt the need to buy Office for the Mac and yes, I even used it for tracked changes workflow with colleagues at the office using Office on PCs.. didn't screw up any changes, didn't screw up any formatting and didn't screw up any Visio drawings etc. embedded in the documents. For a full licensed copy of iWork it will set you back £71 with no restriction on using it 'commercially' like Office does unless you fork out £400+ for a Pro Edition etc.

Starts to sound cost effective again when you know that software is always more expensive than hardware.

BTW: A lot of Microsoft Software, including Windows, fingerprints the machine it's installed on and sends this with the activation to Microsoft now so you might find it hard to transfer it to a new purchased machine.
 
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Metatron

Member
Sep 12, 2010
30
0
Worthing
How do you know?

The virus that exist require you to install them, which means you have to enter your password, the main vulnerability with Mac are browser based attracts which require you to use Safari and visit a specially crafted website, most are not in the wild and are created to win stuff, like Pwn to Own. The main reason Macs are safer is not many people own them and they are not used heavily in industry, so creating viruses for them does not make financial sense.
 

Adze

Native
Oct 9, 2009
1,874
0
Cumbria
www.adamhughes.net
MS Office Home and Business £154 - no restrictions on business use and it ships with a free MS Outlook Licence worth £70 or thereabouts. That's about the same price then as iWork and an Outlook licence, which you will require on a Mac for business use as the rest of the world uses MS Exchange and MS Outlook and you'll look a total joke telling people your Mac can't accept calendar invites because you were too tight to fork out for an Outlook licence but could afford to spend 4x the price on the hardware. There's a reason there's no restrictions on business use for iWork... almost nobody does it.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0039L50...de=asn&creative=22206&creativeASIN=B0039L50J8

Then to the fact that the OP wants to use the PC at home for home use... MS Office Home and Student is around £69 for a three user pack in PC World... Hmm... iWork is looking a little more like "hard labour" all of a sudden.

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/microsoft-office-2010-home-and-student-05018180-pdt.html

Fair play... you can get versions of MS Office for £400+... but nobody does as they use the volume licensing agreements with MS because the businesses which require those versions of Office don't buy single licences, they buy hundreds or thousands of them at a significant discount.

Let's put that into perspective then:

PC ~=£500
Office Home and Student £69
Total £569

iMac £998.98
iWork £71.00
Total £1069.98

Doh!
 

Adze

Native
Oct 9, 2009
1,874
0
Cumbria
www.adamhughes.net
The main reason Macs are safer is not many people own them and they are not used heavily in industry, so creating viruses for them does not make financial sense.

I hear that! However social engineering is THE single biggest factor in malware propagation in the industry. That someone would buy a Mac makes them a target - not ten years ago when malware was bored 'Merkin teenagers with a screw you attitude to the system, but now that we're talking organised crime with a view to profit over destruction and that "I'm immune" blindspot leaves them wide open. Buying a Mac proves you have disposable income - which is what they're after.

Yes most malware is written for Win32. Why? A 92% and climbing market share - it's where the money is.

However, where is most of the portable device malware targetted? iOS, iPhone, iPad and laterly Android... why? Exactly the same reason, market share. iOS is based on exactly the same base code that OS X is.

Own a Mac and think you're immune? I'm guessing you've never heard of a rootkit. Think again! Yes it's safer in the main than Windows XP, a decade old operating system on it's last legs, but that sense of safety breeds a complacency which is exceedingly dangerous to the end user.

http://theappleblog.com/2008/01/23/why-mac-security-matters-os-x-rootkit-hunter/

The above link is example only - I neither endorse nor condemn it. Security is 99% paranoia and 1% what you have installed software-wise to protect you.

Cheers,
 

tobes01

Full Member
May 4, 2009
1,902
45
Hampshire
Time for me to stop being so independent (see my earlier post) and pitch in for Macs.

There's no doubt that you can get a PC for much less than a Mac. But a year later, that PC will have virtually no residual value - you'd be lucky to get more than a few hundred quid for it, and that's if it was a good 'un when you bought it. I buy a new MacBookPro for my business every 15-18 months (i.e. after the Apple hardware refresh cycle). I sell the old one for around £800-£900. That means it's got about a 60% - 70% residual value after that time. It's still a little more than the cost of running a cheap PC, but I love using them. Windows just gets on my t*ts, the endless faffing about trying to get software to work properly (not necessarily Microsoft's, just poor quality third party software). That doesn't happen with Apple.

I agree with Adam's comments on Malware, anyone who runs a PC or Mac without some form of malware protection is asking for trouble and deserves it when they get it - it's just part of the overhead cost of being online.

And yes, MS-Office is cheaper for the PC than for the Mac, but frankly I only ever use it when I'm working on client materials. For my own purposes I stick with the much less bloated iWork, and OpenOffice is becoming a serious contender in this space.

Linux is free, and I've played with it and like it. However, it's 20 years since I had to get under the hood of Unix, and I'm not willing to trust my business to an OS I can't repair. Remember that the Ubuntu business model is to make money from support, not the OS.

Anyway, back to the original question, why are Macs better? As I said before, they're not. But I have no need to run my business on PCs, don't have the time or patience to muck about mending Windows or Linux, and I have the luxury of being able to afford a Mac. It's like knives - a Mora is going to do every bit as good a job as an Alan Wood, and in the right hands will be a much better knife. But I love the experience of living with the more expensive bit of kit, and don't mind paying the premium to do so.

Tobes
 

Extreme Pilgrim

Forager
Aug 27, 2010
148
0
UK
I am now on my second Apple Mac and cannot recommend them enough to people, especially people who are not the very technically minded as the operating system is very easy use compared to a PC.
 

MSkiba

Settler
Aug 11, 2010
842
1
North West
MACS are good untill you need someone to fix them, or you want to install your favorate package on them. Or hook them upto a domain, or right click.

There is a reason why only graphics designers, and non technically minded home users buy them only. You want to buy a car that a new driver recommends or a mechanic with 30 years experience?
 

Fizzy

Nomad
Feb 8, 2010
343
0
Ash Vale
Never had any domain issues once File and Print services for Mac was up and running and you can right click when using a mouse, not that you really need to.
 

Paul_B

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 14, 2008
6,203
1,569
Cumbria
TO the OP I ask you the question why you are considering changing to Mac? Have you PCs worked for you? Do they still work for you? What had changed from when you bought your last PC and now? Why change from what you know and have experience of? Yes there are aspects of Mac that are better but are they better for you? I listen to all the arguments to switch to Macs and yes I amn convinced it is a better machine but for who? A home user doesn't need the Mac IMHO. The PC, for all its flaws, does what you need of it. At the end of the day most people will know someone wh can sort out the majority of their PC problems and those that can't be sorted out by a mate, well there are many, many options out there for HOME users to get cheap support. How many of you have a mate who is an "expert" on Macs? DO you know where and how far away your local Mac repair place is? I can tell you from my very small home town I can reach probably in excess of 15 PC support companies I could use within about 20 minutes drive! I think my nearest Mac support is about 45 minutes away.

I've come across this sort of question before and it always amuses me how you will get a load of posts about how Macs work better over PCs or the other way around. But this misses the point. You have a person asking this question. IMHO if he hasn't got the answers for himself then, and I mean no offence, he probably doesn't understand the two machines. Not explaining this well, he probably only wants a machine that works for him. Both machines will but which will he work best with? If he knows PCs and is used to them then perhaps that is the answer. No matter how passionately Mac users encourage the switch it is often best to stay with your current computing choice. Stick to what you know and works for you.

Of course I don't know as much as those who have posted before. I am just a guy who would want a Mac because of its oft promoted benefits but has no idea how to use one so I have always made the choice of PC. Its what I know, it is what most people know, perhaps that is the answer to the OP's question namely that is what he knows.
 

tobes01

Full Member
May 4, 2009
1,902
45
Hampshire
When was the last time you actually used a Mac? OS9 days?

1. Different OS, different software. Learn to live with it or stick with a PC.
2. Right-click, scroll, swipe, pinch... Macs have supported right click for 10 years, and the hardware is more flexible for gestures than any PC equivalent.
3. Domains. Plug it in. Click join. Start working.

If you just plain hate them then that's fine with me, but don't start misleading people when you don't know what they can do.

MACS are good untill you need someone to fix them, or you want to install your favorate package on them. Or hook them upto a domain, or right click.

There is a reason why only graphics designers, and non technically minded home users buy them only. You want to buy a car that a new driver recommends or a mechanic with 30 years experience?
 

lucan

Nomad
Sep 6, 2010
379
1
East Yorks
I've got a dual boot system of Ubuntu 10.04 LTS/ windows Vista ultimate running on a Dell Inspiron 1545, I quite like Ubuntu, I find it less buggy than anything windows has to offer, and it's easier to set up, and maintain.
The easiest part is, it installs through windows.
 

ged

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 16, 2009
4,981
14
In the woods if possible.
Declaration of interest: I own a lot of computers, and support even more. Most of them are either GNU/Linux boxes (both those I own and those owned by customers) or Windows XP boxes (owned by customers, I own no Windows boxes). I own one Mac but I hardly ever switch it on, maybe once every couple of years. (I only bought it so that I could support a customer in LA, they needed their Website to work with the Mac browser without fail. That project was finished long ago.) I never really got on with the Mac, probably because I used it so little, but it worked fine and the operating system installation was by far the quickest and easiest that I've ever done in my life. I've probably installed more operating systems than many of you have had hot dinners.

It's time to change our PC

Why?

why is a mac better than a pc?

They're just different.

Pretty much all the software you'll ever see for a Mac was designed for that Mac. That's not necessarily true for PCs, which is one reason why there are many horror stories about problems running software on them. Another reason is that PC hardware comes in a bewildering variety from a huge number of suppliers, and getting software to run on the practically infinite number of possible permutations and combinations of all that equipment is technically challenging. Also, in my opinion, PC software from third parties is in general of poorer quality than Mac software. Having said that, in historical terms software is in its early stages of development, a bit like the "spinning mule" was in the 18th century. We don't really know how to do it right yet, and what we do know about doing it right is largely ignored by the people who do it because they're mostly still wet behind the ears.

Some PC hardware (especially some power supplies, discs and fans) is utter rubbish. When you buy a Mac you know what you're getting and you can get support from people who know both the hardware and the software. When you buy a PC you're taking a risk unless you buy from the likes of HP. Chances are if you nip down to the local PC shop with a PC you've bought mail order, the guy in the shop will never have seen some of the components before. If it's a software fault that probably doesn't matter so much, but if it's a hardware fault it could be an issue.

I've seen people comparing the prices of PCs and Macs but my view is that the comparisons are meaningless unless you actually take the hardware to pieces, look at the components and start asking about Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF). I have a couple of Hewlett-Packard DL380 servers which when new cost in excess of five grand each. As far as the hardware is concerned they are essentially PCs, and not even very powerful PCs by today's standards, but they've been running 24/365 for ten years, either in Cambridge (120 miles from my office) or Sheffield (30 miles from my office) so as you can imagine I don't want to have to keep nipping out to fix them. They run GNU/Linux by the way, not Windows, and typically they get rebooted every year or so. Not many PCs that you'll buy for a couple of hundred quid will live as long as those servers. Many of the components in typical low-end PCs have MTBFs in the order of 3,000 hours of operation. So if it gives six hours of service a day for a couple of years you can think yourself lucky. That's not even what I'd call "commercial" grade, never mind "industrial" or "military" grade. When you support a lot of computers you can soon find that buying cheap can cost you an awful lot of time.

There are in the wild over a million viruses, trojans, rootkits and other malware designed to attack PC software (it generally attacks the PC software, not the PC hardware itself). There are three, to my knowledge, for the Mac, so essentially it isn't a problem on the Mac.

And perhaps as importantly, what will it not do that a pc will?

Not a lot, but if you have to use 'vritualization' to get a Mac to run some bit of PC software then the performance probably won't be as good as it could be.

I know it used to be the OS isn't compatible with pc ones so excel and word etc wouldn't work, has that been sorted now?

More or less. Windows and the Mac OS are very different, but all operating systems need some way to talk to other operating systems (and to you!) or you could never send electronic mail, or browse the Web, or even type "hello world" on the keyboard so that it appears on the screen. You don't talk to the OS directly, you have to use some intermediate software. That software is what gives the 'look and feel' that you know, not the OS itself. In general terms it's called the 'user interface' but it might have another name that people use when they talk about things specific to that user interface -- for example when they want to change how it behaves. I use something called fvwm2 for example, it's kind of minimalist which suits the way I work on computers.

It's essentially meaningless to talk about 'compatibility' between operating systems, you really need to think in terms of 'software portability' (which means that a piece of software will run on more than one operating system) and adherence to world-wide standards. Microsoft has historically been out of step with the rest of the world's standards for much of the time, partly because it's been delivering software before adequate standards have been developed (so it had to make it up as it went along) and partly because Microsoft would rather you use its software exclusively in which case you don't need to worry about standards other than those created de facto by Microsoft. As time goes by Microsoft more and more has to toe the line.

If people start to talk about "text-based" operating systems and "graphical" operating systems then stop listening because they're talking out of their, er, hat. What they're talking about is a user interface, not an operating system, and many operating systems these days can work with several alternative user interfaces, ranging from simple text to fancy graphics with pointing devices. The fancier user interfaces consume a lot of computing resources.

There's a reseller in Oxford but before I go in to the 'big smoke' I want to know a little more about it please...

A reseller isn't necessarily going to give you unbiased advice (I should know, I am one. :)) but you probably know that already which is why you're asking here. :)

Have you considered putting Debian or Ubuntu on your old PC just to try it out? You can run both Windows and GNU/Linux on the same machine, either separately ("dual boot") or even at the same time if you wish ("virtual machines").
 
Aug 9, 2010
5
0
Huddersfield
I would say Tobes has a good point. They're two different tools.

As a graphic designer who has a very strong technical backing, I can say I've used both mac and PC pretty extensively. I'm currently on a mac... and the great thing? If I need a package that's Windows based, I just change partitions. Therefore, I have both Windows and Mac on the same machine. It's handy.

I did this mostly for any of those pesky programs unavailable to mac. And likewise, I have my mac partition for those pesky programs you can't get for PC. I will say that if I'm doing any purchases online, I use my mac partition because it's safer (I know there are no viruses on it -- most viruses, as other folks have said, are aimed at PC). If I'm gaming, I go over to my Windows partition. If it breaks, and you've got AppleCare (like an extended warranty), then go to an apple store, tell them what's wrong, and they'll send it away for fixings. Generally, took my local one a week to 10 days to fix stuff (but they will push stuff through faster if you're willing to go pick stuff up from their workshop).

I've had this one for nearly 3 years now, and used it pretty much every day. It gets abuse and has held up well with ne'er a problem that wasn't instigated. I had an issue with the CD drive -- fixed, rushed, no problem (for free. And a free labour hard-drive upgrade too). Had the transformer go on the power supply due to the electrics in our house going pop (sent, fixed for free).

Mind, it all depends on what you want to use the thing for. If you're using it for word processing, emails, office applications, programming, gaming, etc, then get a Windows machine for cheap (lifetimes may vary, but in my experience, about 2-3 years as been tops for me, but I really do abuse my machines). If you're looking for a machine for word processing emails, office apps, graphical applications, video applications that is genuinely a bit more secure online, then go mac (my other half has a still working mac that is 6 years old. He abuses his stuff too). If you want both -- Mac is the way to go. The only reason I got mine was because I was teaching applications for both Windows and Mac.

In short, the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. But if you don't need all the bells and whistles that you get with a mac, then a cheaper PC is the way to go. It's all dependent on use and with anything, using the right tool for the job.
 

Adze

Native
Oct 9, 2009
1,874
0
Cumbria
www.adamhughes.net

Paul_B

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 14, 2008
6,203
1,569
Cumbria
Well I tried to estimate how many operating systems Ged has installed. By my reckonning it is over 14000 OS installs. How do I know? Well I am 38.75 years old assuming it is one hot meal a day every day of my life then that is over 14000 operating system installs. I truth I probably didn't have hot meals for a good chunk of the first part ofmy life but I have often had two or more hot meals on other days so I do think in reality I'd say it is going to be well over 20000 hot meals therefore more than that in OS installs.

Its all BS really same with the BG/RM debate. You like what you like, they both work (mostly) they are both as likely to get you wanting tothrow them out of the window cursing the IT guy who gave it to you and who can't fix the bloody thing quick enough!! They are a tool that is all. Who cares about the detail. I want a box that works. MTBF is irrelevent to anyone except those IT managers in business who have to think about lifetime cycles and the like. The OP is a home user. That probably means a few hours every so often. Most people are on it an hour or two each night at most (if they have a life it is less). That means non-HP stuff is probably good enough. Most people will buy from PC World or similar. You aretalking SOny ACer Dell HP fujitsu etc for PCs. AFAIK they often last long enough to be of use. Indeed it is probably other drivers than failure that prompt replacement. So IMHO it is misleading to talk about parts quality in a less demanding home application. Besides I know people whos most reliable laptop or pc is a cheapo emachines one bought for a few hundred!!

Anyway, please carry on this debate. It is pointless. You will be able to argue till the end of days (or the end of this technology) about which is best it will still be irrelevant. You don't need the best only what works!! Both systems work its what one you want and perhaps its a case of sticking to what you know ie PCs!

Please carry on. Perhaps we could re-name Macs as Ray Mears and PCs as Bear Grylls and combine the two pointless debates together? Might save space on the forum!! :D :p
 

Paul_B

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 14, 2008
6,203
1,569
Cumbria
Please carry on. Perhaps we could re-name Macs as Ray Mears and PCs as Bear Grylls and combine the two pointless debates together? Might save space on the forum!! :D :p
 

MSkiba

Settler
Aug 11, 2010
842
1
North West
Hey hey Im not misleading them. The OP asked for my opinion. My opinion is that PC's are far more superior as a hole than macs.
 
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MSkiba

Settler
Aug 11, 2010
842
1
North West
P.S. for the record. Officially, PC and MAC are different. not one is "better" thats why they have 2 on the market and survive side by side.
 

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