Pain relief and willow?

[awarner]

To start off my knees are knackered, ruptured ligaments and arthritis so I'm in constant pain, it's just the amount that changes. The quacks will not do anything until my knees give way so they are not much help, so I hate having to pop paracetamol and most of the time it has no affect anyway.
So this leaves me looking to try more natural methods of pain relief, starting off with willow. Where I walk there are goat willow but what is the best way to prepare and what dosage?

Thanks for any help

 

[forrestdweller]

i wouldnt know about dosage - i either boiled the bark or just chewed on it....

but don't use it long term because of the (possible) side effects

 

[Toddy]

Look up meadowsweet instead.
If you cannot find it growing near you, and you have a bit of garden, I will send you a piece of root that will only need kept somewhere damp. A big pot that you mind and water often will do.

M

 

[mrcharly]

You'd be better off taking small amounts of aspirin than using Willow.

But any long-term painkiller or anti-inflammatory drug, be it from Boots or from a plant in your garden will have side effects.

For joint pain, Ibuprofen is better than paracetomol. It is a better anti-inflammatory drug with fewer side-effects.

 

[santaman2000]

If you have ruptured ligaments and the doctor's refusing to treat you, I'd get another doctor. I went throguh the knee thing about 8 or 10 years ago; my right knee ligament was shredded (literally, I saw the x-rays and it looked like the fringe on a frontier coat) My primary doctor referred me to the orthopedic surgeon who scoped my right knee (in and out of surgery the same day) and then I had two months of physical therapy after that followed by a lifetime regimen of Glucosamine/Chondroitin.

 

[Robson Valley]

Willows belong in the genus Salix. In part, the name was used for the salicylic acid which is found in the bark.
While it does have useful analgesic properties, gastric bleeding in humans is a notable side effect.
When that biomolecule is modified, it becomes acetylsalicylic acid ( ASA ), which is not as harsh in the human digestive tract.

I don't recommend chewing willow bark for any reason as you've no way of knowing what dose you might be ingesting.

Up here, cow moose eat a lot of willow trigs just prior to giving birth in the spring.

 

[Herbalist1]

I'm with Mary - Meadowsweet is a better alternative to willow. It contains the same anti inflammatory active ingredient plus it doesn't cause the same gastric upset, in fact it is also used to treat gastric problems. Note though that some people are sensitive to salicylic acid from whatever source.
Are you looking for natural alternatives to pharmaceutical drugs or alternatives that you can forage for?
There are some very good herbal anti inflammatories - Wild Yam, Devils Claw, Tumeric - but you won't find these growing in your local hedgerow. Tumeric is great, cheap and easy to get hold of and easy to take - a teaspoon in milk, 2/3 times a day!

 

[Janne]

Having a shot knee myself - torn ligaments, both meniscuses holed, cartilage almost worn out - no alternative medication will help.

I would never experiment in dosing myself with Salisic Acid derived from Salix, as you do not know the dosage.
In worst case you will "etch" your stomach mucosa (lining) really badly. also you can start getting bad nose bleeds and so on.
Just not worth it!

 

[awarner]

Thanks for the input and advice, it's the arthritis that's the constant pain so it was just the thought of trying something else to see if it can help.
After having the fun of camera's in the knees etc the verdict is until the knees start to give way, replacements are not to be looked at as at 47 I'm too young.

I would be interested in Meadowsweet not I do not know of any in my area, thanks for the offer of some root Toddy much appreciated.

 

[Toddy]

You're very welcome

While I mind though, for those of you who do eat meat; Xylaria posted a really sound alternative that genuinely helps heal damaged joints. Bone broth. Old fashioned remedy, but it contains everything the body needs, iimmc.
I have no idea where the post is, but I'll have a good look for it.

M

 

[Toddy]

Found it it was in this thread….see post No.19

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133947

Fi said, "Was a county standard runner at 16 and then one day running for a bus at the ripe old age of 18 the hip joint went bang. Well cut a long story short by 30 I was walking with sticks arguing with bone doctors. My hip joints were square pegs in round holes with bits of bone falling off and wandering about the joint, and the ligament to the side of leg twanged against the femer.

Ok and we had a cat, the cat had kidney disease and ate raw meat. This meant I had alot of bones to boil up and make stoke. Three months of eating a diet where I ate proper chicken/ turkey stock I could walk without sticks and I now live nearly painfree.

I found out boiled bones especially chicken where the treatment of choice for arthritis up until the 1930s. Even if it doesn't work it won't kill you or leave you out of pocket. "

 

[forrestdweller]

I would never experiment in dosing myself with Salisic Acid derived from Salix, as you do not know the dosage.
In worst case you will "etch" your stomach mucosa (lining) really badly. also you can start getting bad nose bleeds and so on.
Just not worth it!

in case i created a misunderstanding in post #2: i only use(d) a small piece of bark and only once (per problem) and not very often as im aware of the problems/side effects....( as there's no medicine without side effects)

 

[santaman2000]

Thanks for the input and advice, it's the arthritis that's the constant pain so it was just the thought of trying something else to see if it can help.
After having the fun of camera's in the knees etc the verdict is until the knees start to give way, replacements are not to be looked at as at 47 I'm too young.

I would be interested in Meadowsweet not I do not know of any in my area, thanks for the offer of some root Toddy much appreciated.

Sorry to hear about the arthritis and I hope you find something. I've heard of some sufferers here on a regimen where they alternate drugs: i.e. if they're due a dose twice a day, they take paracetamol in the morning and acetaminophen in the evening.

Regarding the knee, I expect they never considered a replacement in my case either; however getting that knee "scoped" (removing the shredded cartilage) and the physical therapy helped considerably.

 

[PDA1]

As reported below, the active ingredient is salycylic acid. The The synthetic improved version is acetyl salycylic acid. Better known as Aspirin. Taking controlled doses of aspirin is far better than chewing willow bark. Personally, I find "vitamin I" (Ibuprofen) to be the most effective.

 

[Toddy]

Y'see there's a problem with that. Measured doses, fine, but those measured doses are for some mythical 'average' person.

It's not only body size that's the issue, it's the individual's response to the drug too.
Somefolks are overly 'reactive' to certain chemicals. Some folks are aware enough that they can micro dose quite happily. Some folks are more aware, or less aware, of pain than others.

Basically the drug companies play it safe and create a 'one size will do' kind of tablet. That it sometimes doesn't do it very well, or in others does it waaaay too much is written off just like the long list of side effects; and they totally miss out the synergy of the entire plant base by refining out only the 'active chemical' bit. The other parts, like the tannin, also have an effect in the herbal drug action.

A wee bit of willow bark (find goat willow, it's much the sweeter variety) and chew on the end of one of the twigs. You'll taste the bitter compound, and you'll not be able to chew that much before you will have definitely had enough of it. Even those of us who don't really taste bitter can feel the tanniny dryness. Personally I only chew the bark when I'm stripping out cordage from it….and my dentist gives me a row because, and I quote, "Your teeth aren't meant for that!!", but I do feel the effect (RA for over half my life) and no upset gut because of it.

Tummy wise, the willow bark raw like this is gentler than the purified chemicals in aspirin tablets, and the painkilling is slower but longer lasting. But, and it's a big but, it's a judgement call. How much, how often, how long ?
Generally the advice from days when it was common place to use such things was, three days and do you really need it more ?

The advice from the scholarly Herbal Drugs and Phytopharmaceuticals is well worth reading, (the book is expensive, but if you can find a second hand copy for twenty five quid or so, it's well worth the money if this kind of thing interests you) but there is masses of advice out there on how to use the stuff.

"Two to three grammes of finely chopped or ground bark is put into a cup of water. The water is brought to the boil and after five minutes strained and drunk. May be repeated three or four times a day. " That's about two teaspoonsful of finely chopped bark to the cup.

Another article….
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...al-Drugs-Phytopharmaceuticals, willow&f=false

Legally I am not allowed to advise, or encourage someone to take any herbal medicine since I am not a trained medical herbalist. There are some who are who are members here, but they don't know everyone who is likely to read this forum, they cannot be held accountable for anyone's action if they do take something they suggest here.
So, it's a judgement call. Your body, your judgement…….probably why most folks just pop the pills

M

 

[mrcharly]

Not a good idea to assume that the bitter taste will stop people from eating too much - I like the taste of aspirin, always have. As a toddler, got my gums on a jar of 100 tablets and chewed through the lot.

But I take the point about the combined intake of the substances may be more than the parts.

 

[santaman2000]

....But I take the point about the combined intake of the substances may be more than the parts.

True statement regardless of whether it's an herbal or a commercial product. The only advantage the commercial drugs have in this regard is that they also publish the drug interaction info.

 

[Toddy]

Not a good idea to assume that the bitter taste will stop people from eating too much - I like the taste of aspirin, always have. As a toddler, got my gums on a jar of 100 tablets and chewed through the lot.

But I take the point about the combined intake of the substances may be more than the parts.

It wasn't said as as preventative measure, or an overdose limiter, simply advice that it's bitter, really bitter, and you won't want to eat much anyway. I don't have much of a bitter taste issue, but even I'm aware that it's bitter…..that's why the Goat's willow

Santaman2000, the books I recommended do give the published drug interactions….and willow is surprisingly free of issues

M

 

[Herbalist1]

Y'see there's a problem with that. Measured doses, fine, but those measured doses are for some mythical 'average' person.

It's not only body size that's the issue, it's the individual's response to the drug too.
Somefolks are overly 'reactive' to certain chemicals. Some folks are aware enough that they can micro dose quite happily. Some folks are more aware, or less aware, of pain than others.

Basically the drug companies play it safe and create a 'one size will do' kind of tablet. That it sometimes doesn't do it very well, or in others does it waaaay too much is written off just like the long list of side effects; and they totally miss out the synergy of the entire plant base by refining out only the 'active chemical' bit. The other parts, like the tannin, also have an effect in the herbal drug action.

A wee bit of willow bark (find goat willow, it's much the sweeter variety) and chew on the end of one of the twigs. You'll taste the bitter compound, and you'll not be able to chew that much before you will have definitely had enough of it. Even those of us who don't really taste bitter can feel the tanniny dryness. Personally I only chew the bark when I'm stripping out cordage from it….and my dentist gives me a row because, and I quote, "Your teeth aren't meant for that!!", but I do feel the effect (RA for over half my life) and no upset gut because of it.

Tummy wise, the willow bark raw like this is gentler than the purified chemicals in aspirin tablets, and the painkilling is slower but longer lasting. But, and it's a big but, it's a judgement call. How much, how often, how long ?
Generally the advice from days when it was common place to use such things was, three days and do you really need it more ?

The advice from the scholarly Herbal Drugs and Phytopharmaceuticals is well worth reading, (the book is expensive, but if you can find a second hand copy for twenty five quid or so, it's well worth the money if this kind of thing interests you) but there is masses of advice out there on how to use the stuff.

"Two to three grammes of finely chopped or ground bark is put into a cup of water. The water is brought to the boil and after five minutes strained and drunk. May be repeated three or four times a day. " That's about two teaspoonsful of finely chopped bark to the cup.

Another article….
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...al-Drugs-Phytopharmaceuticals, willow&f=false

Legally I am not allowed to advise, or encourage someone to take any herbal medicine since I am not a trained medical herbalist. There are some who are who are members here, but they don't know everyone who is likely to read this forum, they cannot be held accountable for anyone's action if they do take something they suggest here.
So, it's a judgement call. Your body, your judgement…….probably why most folks just pop the pills

M

Spot on Toddy,
Synergy is considered to be a very important principle in herbal medicine - the complex of chemicals in the plant often providing a greater therapeutic effect than a single active ingredient. Likewise there are usually fewer side effects. Certainly I'd expect less chance of gastric upset with willow bark than with aspirin ( that is my experience).
The acetyl group added to salicylic acid in asprin is to facilitate the drug crossing the blood brain barrier which as Toddy states, means it acts faster but with less duration.

As for the bitterness not stopping mrcharly munching the aspirins, that's because the bitterness isn't present in asprin but in the tannins in the bark. If you chew the bark you'll definitely taste the bitterness and astringency.
Again as Toddy says, even as a herbalist it is impossible to do any more than give very general advice on a forum like this. It would be irresponsible to do so without having someone's case history.

 

[Janne]

I used to love crunching Aspirin, loved the sensation in the mouth, but then age scre*ed up my esophagus, stomach and intestines...

Self medication, herbal or with "proper" medicines is not the best idea.
Many people do not realize the strength of some herbals..