open fires, fireboxes, hobo stoves and environmental responsibility?

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myotis

Full Member
Apr 28, 2008
837
1
Somerset, UK.
Thanks Myotis. As bushcrafters in particular we can't escape reflecting on all this.

Worldwide it appears that local people everywhere still using traditional open fires or variants to cook and be warm are now considered as significant polluters and deforesters on a global scale. While in fact all they do is bushcrafting 24/7 all year long...

Well it will not stop me bushcrafting pretending this is Stone Age and all is well...:)...just for the sake of happiness!

I think reflecting, and acting, on these things is important, just struggle to cope with people taking them to extremes.

I didn't realise that that traditional life styles that rely on open fires were being considered as significant polluters.

Graham
 

HillBill

Bushcrafter through and through
Oct 1, 2008
8,141
88
W. Yorkshire
I think reflecting, and acting, on these things is important, just struggle to cope with people taking them to extremes.

I didn't realise that that traditional life styles that rely on open fires were being considered as significant polluters.

Graham

I will put a bet on that the people claiming this are the worst offenders of all and trying to shift blame or aggresive attention onto the traditionalists.
 

y0dsa

Forager
Jan 17, 2008
114
0
The Danelaw
This thread has picked up and run like wild fi... you beat me there.

May I address the original questions and add my twig to the pile...

"1. Has anyone come across this sort of reaction before (ie fire using woodland vandals)"

Not personally.

"2. Have you considered the issues mentioned and habitually use Hobo/fireboxes as "best practice", but with the occasional open fires"

Yes, in so far as trying to minimise any impact on the living. Thanks to the folk on this website, I now habitually use a water-heating stove burning fircones but use open fires as the occasion demands;

"3. Do you use open fires because its more "bushcrafty", but keep them small"

As above. I use bushcraft as a knowledge and ethical base and not as a doctrine.

"4. Do you not really think about it and just build open fires of what ever size seems appropriate at the time."

No - I enjoy thinking about what I do and acting on that;

"5. Do you habitually use liquid based stoves"

I often use a meths based stove especially on extended walks, and own a multifuel yet to be used 'in anger';

"6. Do you think this can be dismissed as a non-issue and we can ignore it."

Hmm. I don't know specifically what fungi/ insects/ mosses/ lichens etc are endanged by such activities. I wonder what they might be here in the UK given that our woodlands have been heavily managed for hundreds if not thousands of years. We have no pristine woodlands (which would anyway include the effects of natural fires). Sure we have some decent stands of old woodland, such as Sherwood forest - but aren't these managed, too? Replanting the Caledonian forest and reintroducing species opens a whole seperate can of ... Pandoras boxes? Where I go for a bit of woodland cup of tea its managed forestry commission of the most sterile sort (but the peace and views are nice). I avoid the nearby SSSI and hope it over produces woodpeckers and wildflower seeds and entomologist's dreams. Let's not ignore this question.

"5. Do you think that dismissing this as a non-issue and ignoring it, that we will end up with public pressure to ban bushcrafting because of its damaging effect on the environment."

Bushcrafting is emphatically a wholesome pursuit with broadly positive social and environmental effects. I would fear its further regulation rather than its banning.
 

HillBill

Bushcrafter through and through
Oct 1, 2008
8,141
88
W. Yorkshire
"1. Has anyone come across this sort of reaction before (ie fire using woodland vandals)"

."2. Have you considered the issues mentioned and habitually use Hobo/fireboxes as "best practice", but with the occasional open fires"

"3. Do you use open fires because its more "bushcrafty", but keep them small"

."4. Do you not really think about it and just build open fires of what ever size seems appropriate at the time."

"5. Do you habitually use liquid based stoves"

"6. Do you think this can be dismissed as a non-issue and we can ignore it."

"5. Do you think that dismissing this as a non-issue and ignoring it, that we will end up with public pressure to ban bushcrafting because of its damaging effect on the environment."

1) No
2) No, i have never used a hobo or firebox, i use open fires, when using fire. I did not really know about the issues raised here until this thread.
3) No i use fire for light, heat, and as a means to cook. I have used fire for 20 years but only heard of bushcraft recently. I always keep them small, to me a campfire is not a mini bonfire and the use dictates the size from really small for under a billy to maybe a foot accross for the dutch oven, skillet or griddle.
4) Answered above
5) No, only when hiking or family camping where fires are not allowed.
6) Ignore it, no. Be aware of it and do your best to minimise it then yes
7) No i do not believe it will go that far, Other than Ray it is not in the public eye like shooting for example.

I apologise for the deviations in your thread btw. Never meant to go so far off track,
 

Grey Owl

Tenderfoot
Nov 26, 2006
93
1
50
Canada
voyagetothebay.cauc.ca
Fantastic thread under evolution, one to which I will add a few perspectives.

First the agreements:
  • We have an impact no matter what activity or cooking method we choose to indulge
  • Many people that have commented appear to have truly considered their opinions and choices
A friend of mine who runs a career studies program for high school students, one component of which is wilderness studies. Over the course of many years he and his students have monitored the development of, and user impact, on campsites along a stretch of river frequented by hunters, fisherman, canoeists, ATVers, etc.

They have recorded tree death/foliage loss, campfire site proliferation, fire-ring growth, groundcover, soil composition, lower limb loss, and numerous other pieces of data. Overall, the results were of steadily increasing site area, reduction in tree health, and most startling, that the reduction of lower limbs on the spruce that would radiate in all directions from the campsite. Until all limbs that could be easily removed, to a distance of 40-60 metres, had been utilized, presumably for starting fires.

There are certainly members on this forum that would abhor the idea of removing these dead limbs, at least to this extent. Perhaps some would even studiously avoid the use of high impact sites (out of ethics or wanting a 'more natural' site?), but the fact remains fires require fuel, the harvesting of which significantly alters the 'naturalness' of the site.

As bushcrafters/campers/people-who-sleep-outdoors we tend to use very similar sites the world over. Access to water, access to travel routes, access to sunshine, access to vistas, access......you get the idea. We will tend to use the same locations for generations, and these sites will be denuded of burnable fuel, particularly as our preferred hobby attracts more people desiring the quintessential camping/bushcraft experience of staring at dancing flames.

Do we then have an obligation to reduce our impact on these highly used sites. Particularly in light of the reality that we as modern humans have caused an incredible amount of destruction and the footprint of our activities appears to getting ever larger. Perhaps our remaining forests, woodlands, wildernesses should be retained intact, without our burning of wood and lofty arguments that our activities are at best benign, and at the very least doing what nature would do anyway.

As we look 100 years down the road, will people say we buried our heads in the woodpile and resisted the evidence to better satisfy our personal desires. Or will we be seen as the ones brough about a new era of respect for wild places, that left them more intact, healthier even. Or will we be reduced to visiting somewhat glorified city parks, carefully manicured, and thoroughly altered from a natural state.

Before someone throws a chunk of firewood at me, I will leap from the pedestal and admit that I am but a lowly woodburner, sometime meth user, and occasional user of liquid fuel based flame throwers, that believes that questioning my own values and actions is important.

Cheers!
 

Boston973

Member
Feb 3, 2009
46
0
45
Mass
Yes camping and bushcraft for most of us is a hobby. Yes it has an impact on the enviorment. Its definetly a smaller impact than the one we all would make had we stayed home that weekend.

My point is this any expert should agree that in order to attain any type of true balance with nature than we are goin to have to have the knowledge to exist with nature in its more natural form. Camping and bushcraft is a hobby for many of us but it is an important one that helps to preserve mans knowledge and skill of how to exist within nature. So yes we use it as recreation. For me though its still important.

Also i totally disagree with anyone acting as if we have any less or more right to be in the forest than any animal. We are after all animals as well. Sure we have an impact but we have one no matter were we are.

As for burning dead wood hurting some insects. I see that as being silly. Things die simply from you living. wether its the hundred of bugs and insects stepped on while we go about our day, or the meat we eat or the crap we unleesh when we start our cars in the morning.

So in closing I would ask the nice lady who was so horrified about the dead wood being burnt if she has any wooden furniture in her house. Or if she drives a car, or uses paper, or does one of the any hundred other things that one persone can do in a year that has more of an impact than any us do having a small fire here and there.

or just smile and be content that people care.
 

myotis

Full Member
Apr 28, 2008
837
1
Somerset, UK.
As we look 100 years down the road, will people say we buried our heads in the woodpile and resisted the evidence to better satisfy our personal desires. Or will we be seen as the ones brough about a new era of respect for wild places, that left them more intact, healthier even. Or will we be reduced to visiting somewhat glorified city parks, carefully manicured, and thoroughly altered from a natural state.

Before someone throws a chunk of firewood at me, I will leap from the pedestal and admit that I am but a lowly woodburner, sometime meth user, and occasional user of liquid fuel based flame throwers, that believes that questioning my own values and actions is important.

Good post, and a nice expansion of some the issues I was hoping we would discuss. It was interesting to hear that Wayland brings his fuel with him when attending moots in organised camp sites.

Graham
 

myotis

Full Member
Apr 28, 2008
837
1
Somerset, UK.
As for burning dead wood hurting some insects. I see that as being silly. Things die simply from you living. wether its the hundred of bugs and insects stepped on while we go about our day, or the meat we eat or the crap we unleesh when we start our cars in the morning.

So in closing I would ask the nice lady who was so horrified about the dead wood being burnt if she has any wooden furniture in her house. Or if she drives a car, or uses paper, or does one of the any hundred other things that one persone can do in a year that has more of an impact than any us do having a small fire here and there.

Again, I feel the need to defend my friends point (while still agreeing with your post).

Insects, especially rare insects, which is one of the reasons they are rare, have very specific and narrow habitat and environmental requirements. Although, Toddy doesn't agree with this, the concensus amongst those who undertake research into woodland animals is that suitable woodland habitat has seriously declined over the years, and continues to decline (in the UK).

Assuming our knowledge of rare insect ecology is as good as our understanding of other rare organisms, we almost certainly don't fully understand their habitat requirements, but we do know that saproxylic insects feed on dead wood, and because of woodland management changes over the years this group of insects are under particular threat.

When a population comes under serious threat for whatever reason, then very small impacts can suddenly become enough to push them over the edge into extinction.

The car driving and wooden furniture examples you give are really irrelevant, because these are not hobby activities, where, in this instance, we can make an easy choice about size of fire, or not to have a fire at all and use a stove. Of course using a stove raises other environmental issues. But those are more global, where the insect thing will be very localised.

So the argument about fires revolves around the precautionary principle (enshrined in UK Governement environmental policy). That if we can't be sure about the impacts, if it isn't neccessary, or there are satisfactory alternatives then we shoudn't do it.

I have no intention of not using fires, and I suspect that on balance small fires will be better for the environment than liquid stove.
However, as a professional ecologist, I till understand this precuationary principle argument. So while I don't really believe (but based on virtually no knowledge of saproxylic insect ecology) that the small number of fires we make is likely to have an impact, I do think its worth having it in the back of our mind when making decisions about fires and stoves.

Graham
 

Tadpole

Full Member
Nov 12, 2005
2,842
21
60
Bristol
Again, I feel the need to defend my friends point (while still agreeing with your post).

Insects, especially rare insects, which is one of the reasons they are rare, have very specific and narrow habitat and environmental requirements. Although, Toddy doesn't agree with this, the concensus amongst those who undertake research into woodland animals is that suitable woodland habitat has seriously declined over the years, and continues to decline (in the UK).

I know that Toddy is more than able to defend/promote her views without any help from me, but I’ve not read anything that suggest that “suitable” was a criteria that she advocated. Just that 'over all' the amount of woodland has increased. Ash, willow, birch sycamore, wych-hazel, and pine, whilst diverse in its nature, it is not always suitable for the rare/less common insect habit.
 

myotis

Full Member
Apr 28, 2008
837
1
Somerset, UK.
I know that Toddy is more than able to defend/promote her views without any help from me, but I’ve not read anything that suggest that “suitable” was a criteria that she advocated. Just that 'over all' the amount of woodland has increased. Ash, willow, birch sycamore, wych-hazel, and pine, whilst diverse in its nature, it is not always suitable for the rare/less common insect habit.

I certainly wasn't having a go at Toddy, I was just trying to make it obvious I wasn't ignoring her views.

Graham
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,979
4,625
S. Lanarkshire
It was the point I was making though, the overall woodland has increased, but there has also been the concommitant huge increase in fallen and dead timbers, which are now left lying since we no longer gather them on a daily scale over millions of households.

I wonder just how much dead and decaying timber your friend thinks we actually need to leave ? All of it ?? It's not going to happen, of that I'm certain.

Meets and moots could quickly strip any given area of a lot of material, it is considered courteous and good practice to take fuel in with us, and indeed I haven't been at one yet where there wasn't fuel left over when we cleared up. The small fires we use elsewhere I really don't think are an issue.........unless one is on a SSSI and then it's a real nono.

Where does fireashes and dead embers come into this decay equation though ?
They too are decay products rich in minerals, etc.
We routinely salt roads and paths when it's icy, in my childhood every household was reponsible for the pavement outside their fences, and the fireashes were scattered as a matter of course during icy weather. The rest of the year they were piled up to weather in a corner of the garden beside the compost heaps, and when the garden was turned over in Spring the old ashes were dug through.
When they ancients defeated a people and destroyed a city, they salted the land to kill it: a final solution if you will.
Is our salting roads and pavements causing a knock on effect that is killing soils and insects ?

cheers,.
Toddy
 

Wallenstein

Settler
Feb 14, 2008
753
1
46
Warwickshire, UK
Half the world's population - 3 billion people - cook over open fires. It's not "traditional societies" (whatever they are!!), it's every second person on the planet.

So a few bushcrafters cooking oatcakes on a hobo stove is really, really not going to make much difference to the overall picture. ;)
 

myotis

Full Member
Apr 28, 2008
837
1
Somerset, UK.
It was the point I was making though, the overall woodland has increased, but there has also been the concommitant huge increase in fallen and dead timbers, which are now left lying since we no longer gather them on a daily scale over millions of households.

I wonder just how much dead and decaying timber your friend thinks we actually need to leave ? All of it ?? It's not going to happen, of that I'm certain.

OK, sorry, I misunderstood the point you were making, but I still think you are missing the point my friend was making.

We don't know exactly how much dead and decaying timber we need, nor do we know exactly what tree species, sizes of twigs, total availability of wood, range of decay states, etc etc that we need for specific insects.

So any non-essential activity (such as hobby fires) that potentially depletes this recognised valuable resource should be avoided. A better safe than sorry approach, and one that in general I agree with, as long as its not taken to extremes.
I will continue to light small fires as I have always done, but I admit she has forced me to think about it a bit more than I was.

As an aside, I also think it would be a sad life if we could only do "essential" activiies, except for the exciting discussions trying to decide which activities were essential :)

Graham
 

Tadpole

Full Member
Nov 12, 2005
2,842
21
60
Bristol
Half the world's population - 3 billion people - cook over open fires. It's not "traditional societies" (whatever they are!!), it's every second person on the planet.

So a few bushcrafters cooking oatcakes on a hobo stove is really, really not going to make much difference to the overall picture. ;)

Half the world population don’t live on this tiny over-used over-crowded little island,
We do, and any un-necessary damage done to this island, has an affect on all of us. If a half a dozen bushcrafters spent 10 days a chopping, a carving, and a burning in my local parkland I doubt that there would a (dead) stick left. The damage done to both wildlife and fauna may never fully recover Moreover; it would have a terrible effect on all the wildlife not just the bugs and insect.
Whereas if a half a dozen bushcrafters spent every weekend in the same woods, and they were mindful of the damage they did, and took pains to minimise the more harmful side of our/their hobby, the damage would be less and the area and wildlife may have a chance to recover.

You and your mates [generic ‘you’ not you you] may visit a wooded glade once a season or maybe a couple of times a year max, but in England the chances are that half a hundred others groups utilise the same glade, just a different times and for different reasons. If each person in the group cuts just a couple of board foot of timber per visit, you are talking a couple cord of timber per year, quite literally tons of wood. If you all use the same beer watering tree, nothing would grow around that tree, and quite possibly the tree would become dead standing by the time the years is out.
Everything we do should be thought about and considered, taking into account we are almost certainly not the only people to be doing it.
30ish years ago when I was an school boy, we had a trip to Glastonbury Tor, We didn’t see a single person when climbed the grassy paths to the top and looked out (hid from the wind and had a smoke) on my last visit we still didn’t see a single other person but the grassy paths are gone now replaced by deeply rutting often repaired stone chipping paths, a food deeper than the surrounding land.
Each little careless footfall damages when added to the million other careless footfalls on this sea locked island of ours.
 

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