one of those knotty questions.

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Melonfish

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 8, 2009
2,460
1
Warrington, UK
ok so in this here vid, ray uses 3 knots. one being the siberian hitch (got that down)
the second i've no idea but looks damn useful its a tention knot but i do knot know the kname of this knot....;)


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw3lL-ofBcE

any help would be appreciated as i'd like to be able to tie this and rays hands get in the way so i can't see, or if anyone could point out a better knot for adding tention i'd much appreciate it.
thanks
pete
 

Ogri the trog

Mod
Mod
Apr 29, 2005
7,182
71
60
Mid Wales UK
Hi Melonfish,
I think Ray calls it a Tautline hitch or a tarp taut hitch or something similar. Personally I think there are other knots which would be better suited to pulling a ridge line tight, I like the Power Cinch (thanks Cobweb). I'm trying to get a video tutorial done but domestic things are getting in the way.
For a wordy description, secure your ridge line at one end.
take the line towards the second tree
about two feet away from it, make a slip knot so you have a loop,
Take the end of the rope around the tree and pass it through the loop
pull towards the second tree to tighten the line and secure with a slippery half hitch.

..... to me it sounds easy, but I'll keep working on the vid....

ATB

Ogri the trog
 
Hi Melonfish,
I think Ray calls it a Tautline hitch or a tarp taut hitch or something similar. Personally I think there are other knots which would be better suited to pulling a ridge line tight, I like the Power Cinch (thanks Cobweb). I'm trying to get a video tutorial done but domestic things are getting in the way.
For a wordy description, secure your ridge line at one end.
take the line towards the second tree
about two feet away from it, make a slip knot so you have a loop,
Take the end of the rope around the tree and pass it through the loop
pull towards the second tree to tighten the line and secure with a slippery half hitch.

..... to me it sounds easy, but I'll keep working on the vid....

ATB

Ogri the trog



Sounds like a variation of the truckers hitch with a sows lug.
 

novembeRain

Nomad
Sep 23, 2008
365
3
41
lincoln
I use a trucker's hitch, bet you can't guess what I do for a living lol, very simple and very powerful (and it's quick release). You can make a second loop in the slippery hitch and make it a 4:1 advantage, so you pull x pounds on the end and get 4 times the tension (in theory).

Make it fairly close to the tree (about 18") and it won't get in the way of the tarp.

EDIT; I do it very differently to the one in ogri's link - just tie a slippery hitch in the rope, pass the end round the tree and back through the loop in the slippery hitch. when you've tensioned the ridgeline, pinch the rope where it doubles back on itself at the loop (where it goes through the loop and you've been pulling on the end). Now make a loop over the rope next to it (coming from the tree) and pass through the loop you've just created (was the gap between the end you pulled on and the rope from the tree to the slippery hitch). If you now leave a loose end you have a second slippery hitch - so everything's quick release.

If that doesn't make sense, I'll have a go at pics but I've got a bandaged thumb so may struggle!
 

novembeRain

Nomad
Sep 23, 2008
365
3
41
lincoln
Sorry if this is teaching egg sucking, just thought it would be helpful (sorry if any names are wrong).

First, a slippery hitch. It comes undone when you pull sharply on both ends:

Start by making a loop like this;
P220109_1908.jpg


Then pass another loop through it and tighten;
P220109_1909.jpg


Just to complicate matters at this point if you wanted that second loop I mentioned, pass the end round the rope, form a second loop and put it in the initial loop with the one in the last pic:
P220109_1911.jpg


Anyway, you've got a loop (slippery hitch), now pass the end of the rope around the tree (the aerosol can here) and through the loop;
P220109_1913.jpg


Pull on the lose end to tension the rope (don't go mad, you're sort of working with pulleys now). and pinch the rope where it goes through the slippery hitch.

pass the end over itself;
P220109_191401.jpg


Bend it into a loop and put it through, if you pull the right side of the loop you don't lose any tension:
P220109_1915.jpg


To undo, just pull on the loose end, then to get rid of the slippery hitch, just pull on the end of the rope (assuming the other end's still attatched to the other tree).

hope that helps.
 

novembeRain

Nomad
Sep 23, 2008
365
3
41
lincoln
you're more than welcome, I didn't read your reply properly until I'd done the pics but it's good to see I'm not alone in using this method. I hope others find it useful.
 

gzornenplat

Forager
Jan 21, 2009
207
0
Surrey
There's another way to tie the trucker's hitch which avoids the slip knot.

[ JFYI, a slippery hitch is a different knot, at least as far as The Ashley Book
Of Knots is concerned, which is the knot-tier's bible.]

It uses half of a sheepshank which, unlike the slip knot, it won't tighten
up and get difficult to untie if it gets wet and your hands are cold or there's
a twist in the loop and it jams..

I don't know what it's called, I can't find it in ABOK.

============================================================

Loop around the tree (or beer can)

IMG_0011.JPG


form a small loop
IMG_0012.JPG


put the free line over this loop
IMG_0013.JPG


take a bight from between the first loop and the tree
IMG_0014.JPG


take this second loop over the free line and through the first loop
IMG_0015.JPG


now you have to tighten it up - hold on to the bit of the second loop that is through
the first loop (in the picture, the loop nearest the camera, hold it where it doubles
back, where it has gone through the first loop)

With the other hand, tighten the whole thing up by pulling (or is that 'pushing')
the free end away from you. In practice, you will probably be more to the side.
The first loop will tighten around the second loop (which you are holding the end
of).
IMG_0016.JPG


Then you finish off the same way as NovembeRain explained. For completeness,
I'll repeat it here.

Pinching the point where the free end comes out of the arrangement to stop it
slipping back, pass a loop under
IMG_0017.JPG


and then back through itself to form a slipped half hitch
IMG_0018.JPG


To undo, pull the free end to release the slipped half hitch, then pull the
second loop out of the first loop, and everything falls apart.
 

MartinK9

Life Member
Dec 4, 2008
6,549
528
Leicestershire
There's another way to tie the trucker's hitch which avoids the slip knot.

[ JFYI, a slippery hitch is a different knot, at least as far as The Ashley Book
Of Knots is concerned, which is the knot-tier's bible.]

It uses half of a sheepshank which, unlike the slip knot, it won't tighten
up and get difficult to untie if it gets wet and your hands are cold or there's
a twist in the loop and it jams..

I don't know what it's called, I can't find it in ABOK.

============================================================

Loop around the tree (or beer can)

IMG_0011.JPG


form a small loop
IMG_0012.JPG


put the free line over this loop
IMG_0013.JPG


take a bight from between the first loop and the tree
IMG_0014.JPG


take this second loop over the free line and through the first loop
IMG_0015.JPG


now you have to tighten it up - hold on to the bit of the second loop that is through
the first loop (in the picture, the loop nearest the camera, hold it where it doubles
back, where it has gone through the first loop)

With the other hand, tighten the whole thing up by pulling (or is that 'pushing')
the free end away from you. In practice, you will probably be more to the side.
The first loop will tighten around the second loop (which you are holding the end
of).
IMG_0016.JPG


Then you finish off the same way as NovembeRain explained. For completeness,
I'll repeat it here.

Pinching the point where the free end comes out of the arrangement to stop it
slipping back, pass a loop under
IMG_0017.JPG


and then back through itself to form a slipped half hitch
IMG_0018.JPG


To undo, pull the free end to release the slipped half hitch, then pull the
second loop out of the first loop, and everything falls apart.

Probably the best Knot in the World:lmao:
 

Melonfish

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 8, 2009
2,460
1
Warrington, UK
oooookay, i am so lost right now...

right so the slippery hitch for line tension? i take it you guys don't use this to alter line tension you simply make a very taut line to suspend your tarp from?
see i'll be using ties on both sides of the tarp so one end i will want a fixed knot the other a tension knot?
i'll have a propper read of this post tonight i've only had a quick look atm as i'm in work but there is some good advice on here.
ta
pete
 

gzornenplat

Forager
Jan 21, 2009
207
0
Surrey
oooookay, i am so lost right now...

right so the slippery hitch for line tension? i take it you guys don't use this to alter line tension
you simply make a very taut line to suspend your tarp from?

see i'll be using ties on both sides of the tarp so one end i will want a fixed knot the other a
tension knot?

i'll have a propper read of this post tonight i've only had a quick look atm as i'm in work
but there is some good advice on here.

ta
pete

I think that the only reason you might be confused is because different people prefer
different knots. All you need is the cord fixed at one end and the ability to make the
line tight and tie it off at the other end.

In order to make it easy to undo later, you are better off with knots which don't tighten
up and jam, and making slipped knots (i.e. putting a loop through instead of the end)
means that you can just pull on the free end to release it - the bow you tie in a shoelace
is just a double-slipped reef knot.

For the fixed end, the Figure Of Eight Noose Hitch (known rather more concicely as the
Siberian Hitch or the Evenk Hitch after the Evenk people who live in Siberia) is good for
this because a) it's OK under any circumstances, b) there are a couple of really flash
ways to tie it which are difficult to follow at full speed and make you look like a pro
:)

At the adjustable end, you need something that is, er, adjustable. And preferably
something which gives you a bit of an advantage in the way a pulley system does.

The Taut-line hitch (the second knot Ray Mears uses on his video) gives you a bit of an
advantage but it depends on the diameter of the tree and may not be enough if you have
stretchy cord, a large distance between your trees, a thin tree, and you need (or like) the
ridge line really tight.

The Trucker's Hitch gives you more line to play with because you can make the loop quite a
distance from the second tree. If you use cord that doesn't twist and jam, then
novembeRain's version is easier to learn. I prefer the other way as it does have the
advantage that you don't have to reeve (thread) the loose end through anything - handy if
you have 15m of ridge line and your trees are 4m apart.

There are plenty of other knots which would do the job - if you are interested, Google for
"midshipman's hitch" or 'prussic knot'

The last knot Ray uses is the Adjustable Grip Hitch but a lot of people call it the Guy
Line Knot because that is all they use it for. It's only any good when the loop is around
something thin, but if that is what you are doing, it is perfect. It wouldn't be any use
around a big tree, for example, because the wide angle of the loop will tend to pull
it apart.

You can get away learning only one knot to replace all three Ray Mears uses:

It starts off like the Guy Line Knot but then you make the locking bit outside the
loop, not inside. Depending on the cord you use, you might need three turns inside
the loop instead of two to stop it slipping back, but usually making sure it's tight is
enough.You do need to make sure it is tight to start off with, but once it has a grip,
it will tighten itself. A pull on the loose end once it has a grip will ensure everything
is both hunky and dory.

Here is the same knot from both sides
IMG_0023.JPG


You can slip it (i.e. put a loop through when making the final turn instead of putting
the end through) but it isn't really necessary because it is so easy to undo and
never jams, and it does make it not quite so easy to get really tight. Once it
grips, though, it will tighten itself.

You can use it on both trees and your tent-pegs. The way you get the advantage
to tighten up your line is to hold the cord between the knot and the tree on the side
that doesn't go to the other tree (e.g. in the bottom knot in the picture, the bottom
side of the loop). Then pull back to tighten. - then as you release it back, you slide
the knot to take up the slack.

You can use the same knot (but not in a loop, tied to the ridge-line) to tension
your tarp along the ridge-line (where it has the built-in advantage that the loose
end will stop water running down the line and under your tarp) and there's no
reason why it can't be used to attach guys to the loops on your tarp. If you have
a small loop at the tarp end, you can make fine adjustments from underneath the
tarp if it's pouring with rain :)

For some of those uses, other knots would be preferred because, once you know
them, they are easier and quicker to tie and untie, and you don't need them to be
adjustable. But if you only know this knot, you can set your tarp up securely.

And you don't really want ties on both sides of the tarp, it will put a lot of strain
on the material and the seams. Use a continuous line from one tree to the other.

Then use two short bits of cord with prussic knots, guy line knots or the
one above to tie the tarp to that ridge line cord (using the loops you were
going to tie to before)

If there are any lifter loops along the ridge, pass the ridge line cord
through these before you string it up between the trees.

Ian
 

novembeRain

Nomad
Sep 23, 2008
365
3
41
lincoln
Pretty sure the "carlsberg" knot above is the "proper" way to tie a trucker's hitch, I know that one too but I tend not to use it because if you let it go slack it falls undone - Though for ease (if you've got a long rope, or for untying it) the carlsberg version is easier.
 

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