New winter bag required

[Randall]

Hello folks, I'm on the lookout for a new winter sleeping bag and have seen a down bag for relatively cheap. It's from Mountain Warehouse and I'd like to ask if anybody here has used a MW bag before and if they're bags are good for the money?

The one I have my eye on is this:

http://www.mountainwarehouse.com/ca...B3nFk_avmJFIe7csUAydroyFmAlmRXxkJshoCXX_w_wcB


Have to say I'm wary of the zips on MW equipment - had some problem with them on a fleece - but the price looks good for a down bag.
Any here used it?

Cheers
Randall

 

[Old Bones]

Please dont!

I have to admit that Mountain Warehouse is somewhere that I really hate, but with good reason. I think its tat, and generally overpriced tat to trap the unwary. Its not a 'proper shop', but somewhere that sells stuff constantly on 'sale' - which means its either deperate for customers, or its not a real sale (think 'Dreams' or Sports Direct'). Its the latter, and you should regard the original price as something thought up by their marketing dept. They have a 50% discount to staff (although one ex manager said he strugged to find something he'd want to buy...), which is huge. My discount is 25% (which is pretty high), and M & S is about 20%. So they are buying in that bag in at no more than £65.

Your right - its very cheap for a down bag. Which raises a question - why? The only down bags even close to that price were the ones from Alpkit (who are going to have new bags this year!), but there were very particular reasons for their prices, and were cracking value. Look at a 'proper shop' like Cotswold or Go Outdoors (their catalogues are free), and look at the cost, weight and spec of their bags, down and synthetic. Thats the standard market price for a down bag, although if you go online you might find them a bit cheaper, Ebay, etc.

Assuming that the spec of the MW one is correct, and its will be OK at minus 9 (and there is a whole thread about temp ratings elsewhere on the forum), thats about the same as a Rab Ascent 700. The Rab (which I suspect does do what it says) is a bit of a standard bag, with lots of good reviews. Its costs around £240, although you can snag it for about £210 online. So your paying about £100 extra for a bag, which you know is a bit of a benchmark. On the other hand, there is exactly one review online of this bag, last time I checked. Its on Youtube, and while its a perfectly decent review, there is no context. How does it compare with other bags, for cost weight, etc? Remember that the reviews on the MW page are largely people who have bought the bag, and said 'job done'. They seem to be 'low information consumers'. I'm sure its warm, but is it the best value?

You get what you pay for. The 'Everest'(!) weighs 1.76kg. The Rab is 1.29kg. Why? MW says there is 900kg of 'high quality' 80/20 down. The Rab also has a 80/20 mix, but only 700kg. The reason the MW weighs a lot more is because that 'high quality' down has a fill power of about 400 (as far as I can remember) Decent brands start at 600. The Rab has a 700 fill power. The Rab down is better and more efficent, hence the lower weight and less bulk. You pay for that, but its half a kilo difference, which is a fair amount.

You dont have to buy a Rab. You dont even have to buy a down bag. Cotswold have the MH Laminia 0 for £145, which slightly lighter than the MW bag, but gets you down to minus 12 http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/moun...0-regular-sleeping-bag-82510054?id_colour=157
.
A bloke on OM has asked about the -15 from MH - http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/gear/mountain-hardware--ultalamina-15/65280.html - Cotswold have them for £165. Thats the same temp rating as the MW bag http://www.mountainhardwear.com/mens-ultralamina-15-regular-OU8490.html
but at only 1.18kg, way lighter.

Or Cotswold have the ME Starlight IV (minus 12) for only £89 at the moment http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/mountain-equipment-starlight-iv-sleeping-bag-82510065?id_colour=98 - although its almost 2kg. The III is the same price, but a bit lighter and not quite as warm.

There are a load of sleeping bag threads on here and on Outdoor Magic, and I'm sure they will give great advice. You can spend more , or less, or about the same amount on a sleeping bag, but it has to be right, because you will be uncomfortable if you get it wrong, and you'll have wasted your money. I think that bag is cheap for a reason, and in comparison with the rest of the market, its not good value. Buy once, but right. Try Go Outdoors, Cotswold or your local retailers (your in the Peak District!), and see what they recommend. If your near Derbyshire, then drop in on Alpkit (just because they have good kit, and a clearance section), and if you search for 'Rab factory shop' on OM, you can find directions and opening times for this fabled place - which might mean a real bargain.

 

[Randall]

Thanks Old Bones, very helpful

Yes I'm wary of MW stuff for the reasons you mention. There's a MW store in town and about three years ago I asked for the fill power of the Everest down bag and the guy couldn't tell me, he didn't know what fill power was. That was off putting and I didn't buy a winter bag at that time or since.

There's so much choice it can be off putting, when the prices are high. I regret not getting an Alpkit SkyeHigh at that time because they were relatively cheap and had terrific reviews on here. Do you know when they are due to stock the new bags?

 

[Old Bones]

I regret not getting an Alpkit SkyeHigh at that time because they were relatively cheap and had terrific reviews on here. Do you know when they are due to stock the new bags?

I know the feeling! Ok - I just didn't have the money, but I hoping that when they do come in, I can afford it. No idea on the dates, but if you look on the Alpkit website, they are operating a sort of signup sheet, and there is a link I put into a comment on the 'New winter bag' thread.

I suspect that not knowing what fill power means when your selling down bags speaks volumes.... Strangely enough someone on that thread is asking about the MW bag as well, so hopefully someone will put them off it without having to go through it all again.

If you cant wait for Alpkit, try the Rab factory shop. Its probably not that far from you, and you might get a good deal. And of course there is always Ebay, classifeds on here and on OM. people do sell 2nd hand bags at good prices, but if you cant see it, you cant make sure that thats its worth it sometimes. If you do go down that route, a copy of 'Dont Forget the Duct Tape' is a great buy. Really cheap on new and used on Amazon, and a mine of info about cleaning, repairing kit, etc. The auther has a glossy bigger book out as well, called the Complete Guide to..., but the little one is a good deal. The author is Kristin Hostetter.

 

[Randall]

Cheers Old Bones, yeah they put me off, even without the constant '70% OFF, ALL STOCK MUST GO' signs that they have up every week. And much of it feels very sub standard. Luckily we have some good outdoor shops in town (Buxton). Sleeping bags have always been a difficult buy though. I'll have another look and search for the Rab shop!

 

[rorymax]

Is this site worth a look for an alternative ?

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/all-wholesale-products/404830.html

I know, ya get what ya pay for will be incoming soon, and I do not mind at all, I want to hear reasoned views.

Ethically harvested, I won't buy unless it is; my small commitment to reduce unnecessary harm to my fellow critter friends.

Are LMR bags any good?, have not got a clue, but one clue I do have is this, most of the sleeping bags retailed by western suppliers are produced\sourced\manufactured or otherwise heavily influenced by near\far east commodities and services.

We have become preoccupied with designer labels and signature brands, perhaps we are omitting too many potentially good products from our shopping lists, if nobody buys and tries (and agrees retailer credentials are morally acceptable) other manufacturer's products then we will never have the experienced reviews to make judgement on alternative products, is everyone so nervy that they can only purchase by the blurb given us by the signature brand snake-oil salesmen?

If that sound like a rant then really it is not, just saying.

MEC coop, Vaude, Rab and others have stated commitments to ethically sourced products, I am sure that some have good intent and certain that some put more effort into ensuring compliance than others, that great American giant APPLE spout the same ethically sourced line, good on paper, but as recent revelations about production plant realities have shown, it is little more than a paper exercise for sales blurb purposes.

If this provokes a response then great, something to pass the time with and no doubt valued and informative responses, I respect the views and opinions of others on here.

In acknowledging my own hypocrisy towards animal welfare etc. I could say this at least once a year " I will probably take off my leather jacket when I get to the restaurant tonight, I'm having loin of lamb with potatoes roasted in goose fat, crackers and pate fois gras - no - that would be unethical; I will have duck liver pate instead".

Will I try an LMR product, I just may, I am tempted, but I hope to glean a little more relevant information before deciding.

rorymax

 

[Old Bones]

Firstly, good luck on finding 'ethically harvested' down on Alibaba - it might be, but I doubt it. Thats one of the things you get with a brand like RAB, MEC etc - they have a brand name to protect, and if customers want ethically harvested down, then thats will happen. However, ethically sourced down costs more, and policing the supply chain to make sure that it actually is ethically harvested also costs money. You dont get something for nothing.

I have no idea what LMR bags are like, its just a name on a website. It might be the same people who make top quality Western bags, but at a fraction of the price, but who knows?

There was a tread a little while back on OM about Karrimor and its quality. One poster put the idea of production in China in context:

And it's nothing to do with Chinese manufacturing.
The Chinese will make goods to the standards you specify (and control).
Some of the best cameras are made in China (for example).
It's the first world manufacturers that want very cheap goods and are not willing to pay for the QC standards that give Chinese manufacturing a bad name. Plus ebay, Alibaba etc where they often sell manufacturers' rejects that failed QC. Whereas in European and USA factories these would normally be destroyed in China they often disappear out the back door to appear on auction sites.

Some companies like Arcteryx very closely control standards in their own Chinese factory and there's no reduction in quality.
Basically there are two models that manufacturers' adopt. Get the goods made as cheaply as possible (for themselves) and take a hit on the returns and repairs which is probably less expensive than the second method of having very high standards before they come out the factory.
As an example I get the impression that Rab have adopted the former model for much of their lower end (less critical ) stuff given the number of threads on here about problems with their event jackets and overtrousers. Whereas their sleeping bags and down jackets never seem to have problems.

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/gear/karrimor-quality-improving/53932-2.html

I highlighted the most pertinent part of the post - which is that your not sure what your buying. It might be a cracking bit of kit, and we are being overcharged if we walk into Cotswolds, etc. It might be the same thing, but with their own badge on it. It might also be a reject from a production line, or a knockoff with cheap down etc. I had a look at one at random. Sounds great for $175 (£116) - minus 22 lowest comfortable temp, 1550g, although the fill power is bit of a mystery. But who knows?

There are no reviews of LMR apart from one youtube appearence, and a bloke in German asking pretty much the same question - who are they and what are they like? Whats the stitching like? The cut and design? Its all a bit of a mystery, and if your buying one, your buying a pig in a poke. At about £120, is it worth finding out? And if its rubbish, who are you going to complain to, or return it to? And if you look at Alibaba prices, its sometimes cheaper to buy stuff in the UK - Alpkits Fire Maple produced kit is cheaper than getting from Alibaba.

If you buy a brand like Rab, MEC, Big Agnes, Cumulus, Marmot, Thermarest, Vaude, etc, your buying not just a name, but the reputation. And that tends to cost, because quality control, etc isn't cheap. The idea that they buy any old thing from China, slap their name on it and then simply charge what they like is difficult in this market - there is just too much competition. And even if they did, bad news travels fast - if it doesn't perform, you'll hear about it pretty quickly.

I'd be really interested in what they are like, but its a risk to pay over a hundred quid to find out. Brands reduce the risk, but cost more.

Randell - The Rab factory shop http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/gear/love-the-rab-factory-shop/55368.html is just over 30 miles away from you, and the Alpkit shop not much further. You've got lots of shops not that far away, so at least you've got plenty of choice.

 

[Randall]

The bag I ordered has arrived! The Rab Ascent 900. Glad I went with a reputable seller and eschewed the MW bag. The Rab bag has the feel of top quality and I can't wait to test it out. What I'm looking for now is some information about how to care for a bag to keep it in prime condition. (I almost didn't order as my small flat gets incredibly steamy when showering (poor conditions for storing it) but I'm permitted to use a dry loft-type storage room at the top of the house, so I'll keep it up there, loosely packed in the cotton bag it came in). So I've got a good place to keep it. If there is a thread about general down bag care, however, please post a link. Thanks!

 

[Old Bones]

Great - I'm sure it will give good service. general advice on sleeping bags storage (down or synthetic) is to do what your doing - leave it very loose in a large breathable bag. If you've got it somewhere where it might get damp, a big vacpac bag is really useful. I use a Poundland one, sealed with one of this big clippit things, because my bag is stored in the loft.

And use a liner - just to stop it getting so manky. And a nice drybag when its out.

 

[Barney Rubble]

Granted you've bought a bag now and I hope you enjoy your new purchase but just wanted to add a small comment in defence of MW. Yes its cheap, yes you get what you pay for but its alright. Ive got a considerably cheaper 3 season bag from MW, it cost £25 and has been brilliant on the several camps that I've used it. The most recent camp was spent sleeping at zero degrees and I was toasty warm in nothing but me undies! the bag is still in near perfect condition and im sure I'll get plenty of use from it for many many more wild camps to come.

 

[Old Bones]

Yes its cheap, yes you get what you pay for but its alright. Ive got a considerably cheaper 3 season bag from MW, it cost £25 and has been brilliant on the several camps that I've used it. The most recent camp was spent sleeping at zero degrees and I was toasty warm in nothing but me undies! the bag is still in near perfect condition

I'm glad its working for you, but have you considered that you might sleep pretty warm and been lucky? This was the view of another MW bag on another thread:

A good mate of mine bought a MW bag a couple of years ago. 4 seasons my backside. He was starting to go hypo at 3am, we had to get him doing some star jumps and get the fire stoked for him.

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128711 - in fact the general comments on MW could be summed up by Billy Blade - "Mountain warehouse. Seriously, just don't".

I'm for whatever works for the individual. For myself, when it comes to being warm, cheap is seldom cheap and expensive is seldom expensive.

 

[BillyBlade]

Granted you've bought a bag now and I hope you enjoy your new purchase but just wanted to add a small comment in defence of MW. Yes its cheap, yes you get what you pay for but its alright. Ive got a considerably cheaper 3 season bag from MW, it cost £25 and has been brilliant on the several camps that I've used it. The most recent camp was spent sleeping at zero degrees and I was toasty warm in nothing but me undies! the bag is still in near perfect condition and im sure I'll get plenty of use from it for many many more wild camps to come.

Considering the amount of quality manufacturers (RAB, Snugpak, Carinthia, Sea to Summit etc.) three season bags which are out there and they can't do 'toasty warm in your undies' at 0°c, that's quite astonishing!