Needfire

[rich59]

I was looking for any information that would support the idea that friction fire was a traditional/ ancient skill in Britain. I eventually found some wonderful web pages on the tradition of the "needfire" or "need fire" or "force fire", or "tein-eigin"or "tein-eigen" or "teine-eigin".

It appears that in many parts of the world including nothern Europe and Celtic Britain and Ireland there are traditions to do with friction fire. The needfire is a fire lit by friction at four major fire festivals through the year. Before the festivals everyone extinguishes every flame in their home. At the festival a fire is lit by friction of wood on wood. This is used to light a bonfire, and from the ashes/ coals of this everyone takes home fire to restart their own fires.

Another related tradition does a similar process in order to obtain healing from illness.

These tradtions give me a picture of the place of friction fire in our ancient culture - particularly in the earliest settlements. The main method of fire lighting would have been to keep a fire going all the time, and relight it from a neighbour. At times however the community would find there was no one with a lit fire. The community would then gather together to, probably with some difficulty, create a needfire by friction before distributing it back to the homes.

Anyone heard of any past or present traditions like this in their areas?

see:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force-fire
http://www.geocities.com/annafranklin2/midsummerbon.html
http://www.paganachd.com/faq/ritual.html

 

[Matt Weir]

Hi Rich,

No, I haven't come across this tradition myself but thanks for the links. I shall read with interest.

Edit: Can't connect with http://www.paganachd.com

 

[xylaria]

I presume you mean this kind of thing
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82169

I did find some interesting things out when researching this. Well it is said a language is a living archaeology of the people that speak it. 'Fire' in modern Irish is 'tine'. 'Force' is 'teann'. I have seen 'teann' been used as a end spelling of the word 'Beltane' but only on British pagan sites not Irish language sites. The pronunciation of both tine and teann are same (native speakers please correct me). I have no where near enough knowledge of Irish to comment whether they are synominous.

Bealtaine translates roughly/disputably as 'Good fire', and I have seen on Irish sites name for festival at the beginning of May translating as the dance between two fires. I have read somewhere that the fires are lit with 'old methods' but I can't find the website that told me that.

 

[Galemys]

Hi all,

Starting needfire was also done with fire thong-like methods (i.e. a flexible material used to saw across a piece of wood to create an ember). It was practioned in Northern Europe in at least Sweden, Russia and Germany according to the following article about the fire thong by Henry Balfour:
"Frictional fire-making with a flexible sawing-thong", The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 44. 1914), pp. 32-64
Unfortunelately the article isn´t very specific about the materials used ("bast rope, willow-strip, leather strap") or references but it has some drawings of methods used in Southern Sweden.

Tom

 

[rich59]

The more you look on this on the net the more you find. Rewarding results can be found on searches including:-

neid fire
neidfyre
beltane fire festival
beltane friction

and so on.

Anyone attended Beltane and other major fire festivals? How was the fire inititally lit?

 

[rich59]

Here is a quote from the Welsh equivalence to Beltane - Calan Haf

"The fire was done in this way: Nine men would turn their pockets inside out, and see that every piece of money and all metals were off their persons. Then the men went into the nearest woods and collected sticks of nine different kinds of trees. These were carried to the spot where the fire had to be built. There a circle was cut in the sod and the sticks were set crosswise. All around the circle the people stood and watched the proceedings. One of the men would then take two bits of oak and rub them together until a flame was kindled. This was applied to the sticks and soon a large fire was made. " From http://www.applewarrior.com/celticwell/ejournal/beltane/wales.htm .

There seems to be quite a number of references in this subject to oak being used for friction fire. Good luck to them! They must be (have been) pretty competent fire lighters.

 

[xylaria]

Anyone attended Beltane and other major fire festivals? How was the fire inititally lit?

Petrol and ciggie lighter

there is a very big gulf between the actions of neo-pagans and historic accuracy. I am a pagan that avoids mainstream pagans so I can practice a religion without arguments with mad people. We dont have a fire on every quarter day, but fire does play a big part in same of the festivals. This is what I do with family and friends.

Oiche Shamhna (eehee shawhna) Have fire, celebrate mushroom harvest, blow up pumpkin with fireworks.
Yule Watch sunset drink warm alcoholic bevvy Make holly crown and hang in it house.
Nolag mBan (12 days after yule) burn holly crown by allowing and fire to burn to embers then restart it with the dried holly crown and the dried ivy.
Imbolc sweep up rubbish then burn it. scatter ashes on trees in garden. Spring clean
Vernal equinox Egg hunts and flower hunts no fire things.
Beltane We go to a local well, make crown from Hawthorne. We dont normally do a fire thing but this year because i picked up a lot dry ganoderma while I was out so made a fire when I got home but that was more of bushcraft thing than a pagan thing.
Mid summers Half hearted attempt to get up 3 am to watch sunrise. If I do this I do normally have to make fire so I can sit outside, keep warm and make brew at the same time.
Lunasa Pick bilberries and leave offering of berries to the Old Man (Mowcop Staffordshire). I have known local pagans set fire to moorland by have a fire during Lunasa ritual.
Autumn Equinox The BBQ of bread and jam. Eat a lot wild food make a lot of jam, and bake bread. Eat a dinner cooked on fire.

I have always felt what ever our ancestors practiced it would of practical use as well as religious. I just cant see a tribal society developing pompous rituals that didn't serve any purpose. Pre-roman britains had a priest caste but they would had the knowledge to start ritual fires they would of been useful to their society. If you think of the story of Baba Yaga the girl had to go into the crone to get fire, but was warned that too much knowledge would turn a girl into a crone overnight. I just try and keep to a practical religon rather than anything pompous. Alot of the info on pagan sites is made up, but some of it like the celtic site you have quoted are properly researched.

 

[Wayland]

That is my experience as well. Most neo pagans take elements from every new age fad, mix it with a bit of wicca and then try to convince me that it has historical basis.

I'm interested in ancient practices, particularly the ways of the North but most people who say that is what they are practicing seem to have done very little real research.

 

[Ogri the trog]

Here is a quote from the Welsh equivalence to Beltane - Calan Haf
"The fire was done in this way: Nine men would turn their pockets inside out, and see that every piece of money and all metals were off their persons. .

Rich,
Stories of fairies often include the idea that they are mortally affraid of anything metal - though I'm sure I remember very aged relatives saying much the same thing many years ago. Indeed on a visit to Southern Ireland some ten years ago, stories were told of the "Fair Folk" who would damage manmade items left where they should not be. Mention was also made of the difference between metal animal fencing and dry stone walls etc to encourage the fairies to protect those in certain areas. It's not too far fetched to reason that metal-free men would approach the mystical inhabitants of a land to rediscover the secret of fire.

Purely susspicion of course but then isn't fire without any mans assistance, our goal.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[gregorach]

It's an interesting subject alright... I've heard of "needfire" before, but not often. Interestingly, I've never come across any mention of it in ancient literature - although it's entirely possible that it was regarded as a pagan practice, and so censored by the (christian) scribes - although there's plenty of references to the quarter festivals and other pagan practices. Still, just because I haven't read it doesn't mean it's not there - I'm hardly an expert.

Actually, the only explicit reference to fire-lighting techniques in early British or Irish literature that I can think of off the top of my head is (I think) in the Ulster cycle somewhere - one of the heros (probably Cu Chulainn or one of that lot) is referred to as striking such a shower of sparks from his steel that he could set fire to a forest. I'll try and dig it up later...

I used to go to the Edinburgh Beltaine festival, before it got really popular. No idea how they lit the fire though - I would guess petrol.

 

[rich59]

It's an interesting subject alright... I've heard of "needfire" before, but not often. Interestingly, I've never come across any mention of it in ancient literature - although it's entirely possible that it was regarded as a pagan practice, and so censored by the (christian) scribes - although there's plenty of references to the quarter festivals and other pagan practices. Still, just because I haven't read it doesn't mean it's not there - I'm hardly an expert.

Actually, the only explicit reference to fire-lighting techniques in early British or Irish literature that I can think of off the top of my head is (I think) in the Ulster cycle somewhere - one of the heros (probably Cu Chulainn or one of that lot) is referred to as striking such a shower of sparks from his steel that he could set fire to a forest. I'll try and dig it up later...

I used to go to the Edinburgh Beltaine festival, before it got really popular. No idea how they lit the fire though - I would guess petrol.

I have come across an interesting website on Northern European pre history - http://www.northvegr.org/main.php with a wealth of knowledge. Do you think this website credentials are OK?

 

[gregorach]

Does look interesting... Well beyond my meagre knowledge to assess it though - Wayland might have a better idea. I'm not hugely familiar with the Norse stuff.

Still, they seem to have the primary sources, which is always a good thing. Gonna have to bookmark that one...

 

[Wayland]

Yes, Northvegr is an excellent resource.

The translated texts are particularly useful for people interested in the real lives and beliefs of our Northern ancestors.

 

[gregorach]

OK, found that reference - seems I was wrong in almost every detail...

The tale is "The Destruction of Dá Derga's Hostel" and the hero is Mac Cécht:

When the boats reached land, Mac Cécht was striking fire in Dá Derga's Hostel. At the sound of the spark, the three times fifty boats were hurled out so that they were on the shoulders of the sea. "Be silent a while!" said Ingcél. "What sound do you reckon that is, Fer Rogain?" "I do not know," Fer Rogain answered, "unless it is [...] Mac Cécht's striking a spark, when he kindles a fire before a king of Ireland when he sleeps. Every spark and every shower which his fire would let fall on the floor would broil a hundred calves and two half-pigs."

[John T Koch, "The Celtic Heroic Age" 4th Ed pp176, s. 90 para 54]

There has also been some previous discussion of "needfire" here.

 

[JURA]

Excuse my ignorance but what is a neo pagan ?

 

[Wayland]

A Neo Pagan is someone who believes they are following the religious practices of ancient pre Christian peoples.

In reality most of them pay lip service to a collection of new age / wiccan superstitions that have very little to do with historical life and religion.

I have yet to meet a modern druid for example that carries out human sacrifice as his ancient namesake would have.

But to each thier own.....

 

[xylaria]

Wayland the sage of absolute truth as always.

If it is any help I have the vaguest childhood memory of picture in children's book of st Patrick using a fire plough. I have often thought how the aboriginal people of these Isles made fire as horse hoof fungus is common in Scotland but flint is common in south England, and there must of been a time when trade and travel between the two was very difficult. Even modern bushcrafters have shown we often have to trade flint and horse hoof between our scottish members and our southern members. So logic dictates there must been other methods of starting a fire other than flint, amadou, and steel. . But I can't find a shred of evidence for any other method .

 

[rich59]

Found this quote

Rituals: Two bonfires were kindled by a presiding Druid most likely from tein-eigin, fire made from the friction of two pieces of sacred wood, most likely an Oak-plank. This fire originally symbolized the sacrifice of the Oak-god. Oak is the tree of the God of the Waxing Year and Hawthorne is the tree of the White Goddess. In ancient Ireland, no one could light a Bel-fire until the Ard Ri, High King, had lit the first on Tara Hill. In 433 A.D., St. Patrick showed his deep understanding of this festival's symbolism when he lit a fire on Slane Hill, ten miles from Tara, before the High King Laoghaire lit his. He could not have made a stronger usurpation of the people's faith. St. David made a similar gesture in Wales in the following century. The Druids, the powerful Pagan Celtic priests, would drive the cattle between these two fires to protect them from disease ensuring a high milk yield, and the powers of darkness. Sometimes, a procession was made around the fields with a burning torch of wood in order to obtain a blessing on the corn. On this day, all hearth-fires were extinguished to be rekindled from this sacred fire.

from http://www.celticattic.com/contact_us/the_celts/feasts_and_celebrations.htm .

Seems as though fire was a crucial element in the tussle of religions as the first Christians spread their message.

Well, I am just getting into this stuff. Looks like a lifetime of study for the whole North Europe/ Viking/ pre christian era records. But within it there seem to be a number of clearly (and also some not so clearly) described friction fire techniques. Maybe we could explore a number of these.

The place of friction fire in the culture is fascinating though. Seems as though it is an ancient technique mastered by few, with powerful significance, and probably predating the flint and steel fire making (note the removal of metal in some records).

 

[EdS]

xylaria and Wayland seemed have summed it up from my experience. Having been married to one that like the rituals and having several friend tha tway inclined (mostly lapsed catholics it seem - must like the dressing up and cermony)

Personally, I think relgion, that is the organised dogma gets in the way of spirituality.

With things like Needfire I feel that tey where ritualised to enough that the "technical" knowledge needed for day to day was passed on to the next generation.

 

[gregorach]

Found this quote

from http://www.celticattic.com/contact_us/the_celts/feasts_and_celebrations.htm .

Hmmm, I smell the influence of Robert Graves "The White Goddess"... Now, I haven't read it, so I can't really comment, but I get the distinct impression that his scholarship isn't regarded too highly these days.

Friction fire from oak sounds a bit iffy too - sure, it was a very important sacred tree, but it wasn't the only one. I'd like to see the original sources for that...

Looks like a lifetime of study for the whole North Europe/ Viking/ pre christian era records.

It's a lifetime's study for any one of those. I'm getting a bit cheesed off at not being able to read any of the sources in their original languages...

I have yet to meet a modern druid for example that carries out human sacrifice as his ancient namesake would have.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the only references to druidic human sacrfice from the classical sources? And aren't those sources notorious for ascribing all sorts of nasty practices to the "barbarians" of the North (or indeed any other "barbarians" they were busy subjugating)? Never rely on a Roman to give you an unbiased account of a society conquered by Romans.