Needfire

[gregorach]

I have often thought how the aboriginal people of these Isles made fire as horse hoof fungus is common in Scotland but flint is common in south England, and there must of been a time when trade and travel between the two was very difficult.

Well, that's the question, isn't it? We tend to assume that long-distance trade is a more recent development, but I'm not entirely sure... Certainly by the bronze age there was quite a lot of trade going on, and there's no reason to think that trade between Scotland and England was difficult. Also, hoof fungus may have been more widespread, and while there isn't much flint in Scotland, there are other knappable rocks.

I guess the other question is how far back do you want to go?

 

[Wayland]

<snip>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the only references to druidic human sacrfice from the classical sources? And aren't those sources notorious for ascribing all sorts of nasty practices to the "barbarians" of the North (or indeed any other "barbarians" they were busy subjugating)? Never rely on a Roman to give you an unbiased account of a society conquered by Romans.

True enough, but we have found enough physical evidence to support the theory that it did go on to some extent.

The Roman sources almost certainly exaggerate the practice for propaganda purposes, ( There’s nothing new under the sun. ) but as they say. “There’s no smoke without fire” ( Unless of course you use a fire bow… )

 

[gregorach]

Ah, now that's interesting...

I agree that it probably did occur, at least to some extent. But you can never trust those Romans... As for the idea that the Picts thought it honourable to eat the flesh of their fathers, and lie with their mothers and sisters in full public view, I'm somewhat skeptical...
But we're getting way off-topic.

 

[Wayland]

Well I wouldn't worry... You lot are Irish anyway.....

 

[gregorach]

Aye, and proud of it!

 

[Grooveski]

Well, that's the question, isn't it? We tend to assume that long-distance trade is a more recent development, but I'm not entirely sure... Certainly by the bronze age there was quite a lot of trade going on, and there's no reason to think that trade between Scotland and England was difficult. Also, hoof fungus may have been more widespread, and while there isn't much flint in Scotland, there are other knappable rocks.

I guess the other question is how far back do you want to go?

Excavation of the Ballygally flint mine found Arran pitchstone tool cores and debris suggesting that the knappers at the site were also making tools from the imported rock. Good chance flint came over the Irish sea on the return.

Greenstone axes from the Langdale quarry have been found all over britain. There have also been a few found in northern europe as well that are believed to come from the same source.
Not far north of Langdale is another tuff quarry where the rock has distinctive green and red swirls. It's not as hard and the axes made of it are believed to be ornamental. They've been found all over the country too, not many but widely spread.

 

[Tengu]

Theres a lot on Needfire in Frasers `Golden bough`

(and guess who has a full nine volume edition, and guess who has read it though...twice???)

I hate the neopagans too; I have read too many original sources to take them seruiously

 

[xylaria]

Theres a lot on Needfire in Frasers `Golden bough`

What does Frasers say about what methods are used to light the needfire?

Does frasers say if there is any evidence of friction methods of lighting fire ancient Britian?

 

[gregorach]

(and guess who has a full nine volume edition, and guess who has read it though...twice???)

Respec'!

 

[Wayland]

I hate the neopagans too; I have read too many original sources to take them seruiously

I don't hate them...I just disagree with them.

I have no problem with what they do, it's just got nothing to do with history and I wish they would stop telling me it does.

Everyone is free to follow their own way so long as they let me follow mine.

 

[-Switch-]

Rich,

Did they hold these fire lighting festivals to retain the knowledge of how to light a fire perhaps?
Also, you said there were 4 festivals a year. Were they evenly spaced out throughout the year? Perhaps they held one in each season, aware of how friction firelighting may change through the seasons with different materials available? Alot of traditions and superstitions have their roots in practicalities.

 

[Tengu]

Oho, you are askig me to go look it up.

ill see...

 

[gregorach]

Rich,

Did they hold these fire lighting festivals to retain the knowledge of how to light a fire perhaps?
Also, you said there were 4 festivals a year. Were they evenly spaced out throughout the year? Perhaps they held one in each season, aware of how friction firelighting may change through the seasons with different materials available? Alot of traditions and superstitions have their roots in practicalities.

Well, it's hard to say exactly how the quarter festivals originated, as they certainly pre-date any written history.

The festivals in question are Beltain, Lughnasagh, Samhain and Imbolc - they're (originally) lunar festivals, falling on the full moon, approximately evenly spaced between the four solar festivals (Summer / Winter solstices, Spring / Autumn equinoxes). Nowadays people celebrate Samhain on 31st Oct (aka Hallowe'en), Beltain on 31st April (May Eve), and don't seem to celebrate the other two much at all.

This arrangement yeilds a year of 8 seasons.

Now, the really interesting question is whether needfire is as old as these festivals, or if it's a later addition. And that's a really difficult question to answer...

 

[match]

As usual, I get away from this place for too long, and interesting posts come up!

Edinburgh has an annual Beltane Fire Festival (as well as Samhuinn, Lughnasadh and Imbolc, but these are smaller affairs) run by the Beltane Fire Society (http://www.beltane.org) which I've been an active member of for nearly 10 years.

It is traditional at our festival to start the event with a neidfire lighting, which the last few years has been done with bow drill (the current 'neidfire bearers' now being apermanent society position - being taught by me a few years ago), before that it was often the 'sacred zippo'

Beltane is a festival of 'spring cleaning' and inviting in summer - traditionally the flocks and people woul dbe driven between 2 fires - the smoke and heat cleansing them (probably driving off lice, ticks and whatever else had been picked up from being huddled together for warmth all winter). It was traditional to light a new fire at this time for many reasons - firstly because of the idea of a 'clean' fire - rather than the 'stale' one that had been kept going through the winter, to symbolise the relighting of the sun for summer, and to draw the community together in a common goal.

The Beltane website is lacking in quite a lot of information at the moment (its in the middle of a re-design), but if anyone wants any more info on it, give me a shout.

 

[rich59]

if anyone wants any more info on it, give me a shout.

Match! Great to hear that you are involved with these traditions!

My questions are probably unanserable. What is the earliest record of a beltane or other traditional fire being lit by friction? Why did friction fire have a sacred or magical significance over and above a spark (or modern day zippo)?

 

[Toddy]

No iron.

"Iron, cold iron is master of them all" said Kipling.
The Fae can't work Iron, it taints our smell to them and it upsets their control, drives them away or imprisons them according to the stories. If you want their help you don't use iron.

The neid fire is lit by skill and knowledge. It is a 'clean' fire, a 'new born' fire; a physically and spiritually cleansing fire.

How long has fire been made by friction? I suspect from almost as long as man has had fire. It's a known technique to every culture on Earth, even if they don't all practise it.

I'm pretty certain that one of the early crannog excavation reports says that at least one of the hearth boards found was made of oak.....s$rry, no idea even where to begin looking for the details though.


cheers,
Toddy

 

[gregorach]

Just found another reference to needfire, so I thought I'd post it. This is from Stuart McHardy's On The Trail of The Holy Grail, published by Luath Press, and he's talking about various Scottish hills with names related to fire festivals:

Here the name derives from neid-fire, an old name for the fires that were kindled at Beltain. These fires had to be raised by friction, using fire drills which were in soem cases so big that they required nine men at a time to turn them. The term neid has been the subject of much speculation and given that one of the customs at Beltain was to drive the cattle between two fires, it is tempting to see some connection with the Scots word neat, meaning cattle. These fires have been described in some sources as being made up of nine sacred woods, one of which was juniper. Its pungent smoke is known to have antisceptic qualities so yet again we may be seeing an ancient widespread ritual carried out at a sacred feast which had an eminently practical function.

Hopefully that's of some interest...

Unfortunately, he doesn't give any further sources, and he doesn't attempt to estimate how long ago this practice started - although his thrust in discussing it is to show the persistence of ideas dating to the Iron Age or earlier in Scottish oral culture.

Quite an interesting book if you're into that sort of thing... He's mainly interested in the roots of the grail / cauldron symbol and its relationship with the Goddess, and how these ideas are expressed via the landscape. I'm not certain I'm entirely convinced by his conclusions, but he certainly has some very interesting ideas...