MY new R.M/A.W Woodlore some observations

[Bagheera]

Hello guys,

I received my Ray Mears/Alan Wood Woodlore knife brand new with the neck/belt sheath yesterday.

I made a few observations that I wanted share with you.

First of all the knife came only part sharp only the first ½ of the edge was sharp and able to cut paper and hairs from my forearm the other ½ direction handle couldn’t cut paper it just slid over the edge of the paper until the sharp portion of the blade came into contact of the paper, no real problem for me but I would think that for a £ 225 knife it would have been appropriate to deliver it sharpened properly.

Although the Woodlore is considered to have an Scandinavian grind which to me means that the grind leading to the edge is a flat grind, it is very clear even to the eye that the only 8mm ground bevel from original blade thickness leading to the edge is really hollow ground, and to make the blade “sharp” a clear secondary bevel was applied, only effective on half the blade.
I’m not an expert but to me it looks like the blades Scandinavian grind was done on a stone or belt with a very small diameter as the “hollow grind” is so obvious.

It was easy to see this as when I sharpened the non sharp ½ of the edge with a medium and later fine absolutely flat diamond hone I only touched the edge and the upper part of the grind and did not even come close to touching the middle part.

I think that I’ll be spending the better part of 2 hours on my medium diamond stone to really make the Scan grinds flat as I think they are supposed to be, I which I had a coarse stone also do shorten the time.
If Helle and many other companies, and also a lot of custom knife smiths can do it I think Alan Wood should also be able to produce a flat grind or manually finish the blade to really create an flat bevel afterwards.

There’s also a marked difference between the left and right side bevel grind which is clearly visible at the tip of the blade because the ^ (tip) if you look at the tip from above is not showing equal lengths of the ^’s “legs” .

As I’m planning on using this knife I probably should not be this critical but again I traded it with a very nice forum member for an like new “old” 1997 Woodlore knife so he paid hard cash for the new one. For £ 225 I think one could ask better execution of the product.

I’m sure that $225, so about half the money of the Wooodlore can and will get you a perfectly finished knife made by for example Nick Wheeler, where flat grind really means flat and grinds are perfect and equal on both sides. Roger Linger will also make perfectly ground and finished knives.

The supplied sheath is nicely stitched, the knife needs a very hard push to get in deep enough but then it is dangerous to pull it out as it takes all my strength and you risk cutting through the leather at the "mouth" when it suddenly "pulls" lose.
I will need to work it carefully for quiet some time or perhaps use some of that shoemakers stuff that you can spray in a leather show to make the leather supple for some time allowing it to stretch a little to get a better fit.

The Firesteel that came with the knife looked like a Light-My-Fire one, however I thought that LMF had changed the model of the green plastic thumb-piece. Upon closer inspection, reading the lettering on the thumb-piece, it became clear that it was of another manufacture.
I haven't tried it yet but my guess is it will throw sparks just as well as the LMF ones do.

I probably will have “kicked a bunch of people in the shins” but I just wanted to report what I’ve found on my brand new Woodlore knife.
This does not mean I’m unhappy, it will cut well and will do so for a long time to come after I spend time on adjusting the bevels, but for a premium price, that I luckily didn’t have to pay, I think one could have expected a better execution of the knife.

Best Scouting wishes from Holland,

Bagheera

 

[Womble]

isn't there a requirement that knives sold HAVE to have a secondary bevel - something about not being legal to sell knives that are toally sharp?

I know my Puuku did a secondary bevel, as did my Schrade.

 

[Bagheera]

Womble,

That's a new one for me, In the US they even sell sharp knives and just add all kind of printed warnings with the knife that it is "extremely" sharp and you could cut yourself etc. but that's more for the manufacturers to keep law suits from "vulture" lawyers at bay

Best Scouting wishes,

Bagheera

 

[Edd-UK]

I have a Alan Wood knife and the edge is the same. well ground the same but is v v sharp all the way along the blade. dont spray the sheath with anything you could desryoy the fit. it will wear into a perfect fit it just takes time.

womble
i dont think there is a requirement, it just the way the edge is put on by machine not by hand. cheap way of making it 'sharp' but not in the true meaning.

 

[Edd-UK]

oh and i have been told the reason alan does this hollow grind. it because many of the woodlores he has made have had to be reground due to improper sharpening so to solve this he made the edge slightly hollow.

 

[tenbears10]

Interesting comments on your new knife Bagheera but just to clarify one thing Roger Linger will make a very nice knife with a flat grind like you say but it will cost more like $325 with shipping and you have to remember that customs will charge import tax on that full ammount so you don't get much change from £225 in the end.

Others on this forum have examples of rogers work so they will correct me if I'm wrong but I just don't think you will get one for half the price of a woodlore.

 

[Bagheera]

Tenbears10,

My faulty building of an English sentence I guess, as I meant $225 for the Nick Wheeler knife but not for the Roger Linger one, just that he makes very nice knives.

I don't understand how a true flat ground Woodlore could be sharpened improperly, isn't it just lay the blade withthe bevel flat on the stone and sharpen and do this i.e. 10x on each side alternating until there is a perfect wire-edge which you lap away on an jewelers rouge treated strap ?

At least I've been sharpening my Scan knives life that for a long time and the end result is hairsplitting often scarry performance.

I also think that the sheath will get a better fit after a lot of use, so no "stretching spray will be used

Best Scouting wishes,

Bagheera

 

[Andy]

I have seen woodlore around where people have put a secondary bevel on because thats how they are used to sharpening knives. There is no law that says knives must have a secondary edge.
I have found that hollow ground scadi knives behanve the same as a flat one when you sharpen them a little. You don't need to make the bevels flat (you still get the guide effect and the right angle.
As for the knife been unevenly ground and not sharp. It's a hand made knife so a little bit of difference is expected but I feel that a knife of that calibre should come with an edge that shows you just how it should be. Ray Talks about how the knife needs to be "razor sharp" so I think when you buy a new knife it should be "razor sharp".

 

[Leon]

Bagheera,
Reading your observations revives some uncomfortable memories for me. I received one of Ray/Alan’s knives just before Christmas 2002 having waited over 7 months.
When I unpacked it the first thing I noticed was a very rough 1-2” section of the edge. It was very ‘toothy’ almost as if it hand missed the final finishing stone.
Of course, the natural reaction is then to start checking over the rest of the knife. As with yours, the bevels were not an even width front and back, indeed for the last half inch towards the tip on the reverse side, the bevel had three distinct angles to it.
Having decided to sharpen out these imperfections on EdgePro, I proceeded to clean off the protective wax from the blade, only to find half the black paint came out of the etched woodlore symbol and the accompanying lettering.
I confess to feeling just a little dejected at that point.
I know I could have sent it back but I felt I had already waited an age for it and didn’t want to lose it back to the system.
Here’s where the silver lining starts, though. Since I got it sharp and straightened out the bevels it has, as I have mentioned before on this bb, easily become my favourite user for bushcraft: the handle, beautifully fitted from the start, is secure and comfortable and the blade works wood perfectly and holds an edge extremely well. I’m certainly not about to part with it now.
I do believe however that it really ought to have arrived with a better finish given the price paid and it seems mine wasn’t the only one.
I hope yours works out well for you too in the end, Bagheera.
(p.s. my leather sheath loosened up nicely in quite quick time without treatment)

Just a couple of extra thoughts re the bevel grind to toss about:
I’ve read about this partial hollow grind on the bevel before and can see the argument for it. However nowhere on the Woodlore site does it mention hollow grind and Ray’s Bushcraft book is very specific about benefits of a fine, flat bevel for working wood (neither chisels nor plane irons have this shallow hollow grind and yet their design seems to have endured reasonably well).
Given there is no mention of this specific ‘design feature’ with the advertisement for the knife it would perhaps be an improvement to package the knife with some literature, maybe including advice on care for the wooden handles too. Mine came with none at all. I know there may be some that would argue if someone is prepared to pay in excess of £200 for a knife they ought to know the ins and outs of looking after it, yet surely one could also argue that those purchasing a Gransfors SFA already know a fair bit about axes and still the product is packaged with a most comprehensive booklet on the subject.
Even if we accept the wisdom of the hollow grind method for arguments sake, should it not be a consistent depth along the bevel? Mine was not and therefore sharpening produced quite an ugly set of grind lines with the stones almost lying completely flat against some parts. By the time I had sharpened out the toothy section of the blade, the hollow grind was gone from that portion.
All this being said, I appreciate that in repeatedly making the same knife by hand day after day, the odd under-polished diamond might slip through!!

 

[zackerty]

Quality control is so important, and we should not assume that because someone is making the same knife over and over again, that rough ones will slip through...
I have made a lot of knives, and I have repeated the same design in a mass production manner...it is soul destroying, and the love of making knives vanishes by the time you get to the 30th one!! AND to know that you are nowhere near half way, well, that is sadder
I have rejected sub-standard knives, and they end up as test pieces for break testing, glue tests, extreme cutting tests,....and after marking them accordingly, gifts to friends who cannot afford my prices There are a couple of fishing boxes out there with a blade getting a lot of use and abuse...
I try not to make more than 10 of any knife model now, and it keeps it interesting for me, and variance for my regular customers.
No matter how busy one is, there is always time to use a 10X magnifier, and check the fit, sharpness, and for flaws in handle materials, etc
I am not knocking anybody else's knifemaking, but Q.C. is paramount to ensuring that you are only as good as your NEXT knife....
I make mistakes, but I fix them...bad word of mouth will kill the best endeavours...

BTW, my scandi type edges are hollow ground on a 8" Tormek, and the first couple of sharpenings flatten the grind.

 

[eraaij]

Bagheera,

This is remarkable and I agree with your observations.

I found out a few weeks ago that my 1998 Alan Wood Woodlore (which I got 2nd hand) had indeed a slight hollow grind. The knife was not as well/even ground as my WS Woodlore either. The WS woodlore came with a virtually perfect and flat grind, btw.

I sent a mail to Alan asking him about the edge and he replied that all Woodlore knives come originally in a slight hollow grind and that he had no means of grinding them full flat. After 5 or 6 sharpening turns on a large stone, the knife would have a flat bevel, according to him.

I have taken mine since then to a 1000/6000 grit japanese waterstone and are slowly approaching a perfect-flat bevel between using it. I decided to make the Alan Wood version my primary user because the WS version dulls quicker. I also think that the handle on the Alan wood version is more comfortable. The WS version handle is too narrow at the back for my hands.

I like the overall shape and balance of the Woodlore knife, it just 'fits' me. But from what I have handled so far, I have no doubt that you could obtain a better finished knife from a lot of other custom makers - Nick Wheeler or Allan Blade.

-Emile

 

[Hoodoo]

I have two WS Woodlores that came pretty much flawless. I've never tried any of Alan's knives.

It's unfortunate about the hollow grind. I think that Woodlore and Allan should be upfront about this, as it was also always my impression that the AW Woodlore was ground a flat Scandi. I know the WS Woodlores I received are flat Scandi ground. I will admit though that I have never looked into this closely so maybe it is stated somewhere I don't know about.

It is true though that a traditional Scandi grind is hollow. That's easy to see when you look as books like Wille Sundquvist's "Swedish Carving Techniques." The "flat bevel" referred to in the book is ground out on a round grinding wheel. However, the wheel is HUGE so the result is not far from being flat. When I was a kid we ground all our knives this way because we used a huge, round wetstone powered by a foot treadle. I'm fairly certain this is also why historically Scandi grinds were hollow, because they used similar stones for grinding their blades.

 

[Bagheera]

Hello guys,

I appreciate all the advice and observations, well I wanted to sharpen my Woodlore like RM does so I ordered a full set of Japanese water-stones, 800, 1200 and 6000 grid including rubber base and Nagura stone from Axminster UK.

My colleagues from the UK took them to a meeting we had in Barcelona (Spain) and yesterday I wanted to get rid of that horrendous and uneven ground "hollow ground" Scandinavian bevel. on my barnd new Woodlore.

Well today (Saturday) I ended up with a Woodlore that has 5-6 mm (about 1/4") of the front part of the handle slabs detached from the metal of the tang, why....

well yesterday I started sharpening the woodlore on the 800 grid water-stone and it's the first time I've used such a large waterstone and I like it very much. Still it took me almost 3 hours of sharpening to get the very uneven hollow ground Scandinavian bevel to a real flat Scandinavian bevel, although I still haven't been able to get the left and right side of the bevel to the same size, which wasn't my objective anyway.
I got rid of the different "bevels"at the tip as there were also on my knife 2-3 different angle grinds near the tip that were camouflaged by a "polishing" action but still visible because of light reflecting differnetly from each "angle".
Near the handle so the part used the most heavy with cutting the "hollow grind" was very uneven as withnessed by the deep variable ugly impressions left when hsarpening the blade on the perfectly plane supurb water-stone.

I wanted to go over the already very sharp edge after the 800 grid sharpening with the 1200 stone and finish of with a mirror 6000 grid polish but I immediately stopped because my handle slabs started to swell very badly.
The brass Corby bolts were looking more like fully recessed and the wood of the handle slabs hung over the metal of the tang badly.
I was flabbergasted, one expects expertly treated handle slabs that can resist some wetness.
I kept the handle as dry as I could really taking care of them and I don't think they got much wetter then on a normal day out with the scouts.

I stopped sharpening and after coating the blade lightly with tuff cloth I put it away from the sun to let it dry slowly hoping that my handle would return to its normal size.

Well this morning it returned a lot to it's original size but still hangs over the corby bolts and some spots over the metal tang but the worst thing now is that I have handle seperation from the tang over about 5-6 mm (about 1/4") of the front part of the handle slabs and this iwas the final drop of water that really let the bucket with water overflow, I'm really disapointed better I'm frustrated that htis super Bushcraft knife that is regarded by many as a very good knife has started to have handle slab seperation. I can clearly see the light shine through both sides (between handle slab and tang

This will get worse with use as water blood and dirt will build up in between the now hairline seperation and rust will form and things will get bad.

I already wrote an email to Mr Wood and also one to Woodlore about the below par quality of this quiet expensive knife and will see what they will say.

I wouldn't have posted this if I hadn't had the handle swelling and seperation I would then have put some pictures up of my really well sharpened truelly flat mirror finished bevel/edge and started using the knife but this my friends really got me depresseda and frustrated.

I will keep you updated, anyhow you'll have up until october this year to make up your mind before you ca place an order for an RM Mears/A. Wood Woodlore knife, I would think twice, three times.... before parting with 225 BP unless I would be absolutely sure that quality control, wood quality and finish would be better then on my knife.
"
Best Scouting wishes from a frustrated Woodlore owner,

Bagheera

 

[sandbender]

My AW WL is nearly five years old and the scales have survived rain, blood, mud and an autumn in Galicia, however this year both sheath and knife became drenched because of a faulty dry bag on a canoeing trip.

The scales did expand although not as much as Bagheera describes. As alarming and disappointing as this was they did shrink back in to place over the next few days.

Perhaps I was supposed to treat the scales with linseed or similar however no instructions to do so were supplied with the knife. I guess I'll simply have to use another knife when I'm canoeing.

 

[Bagheera]

Sandbender,

You're talking about a 5 year old veteran my knife is brand new never ever even went outside I waited for the waterstones as I wanted to put en decent edge on my knife, before using it. No worn finish of the handle just like it came from Woodlore middle of May.

For protection of your handle slabs you could perhaps use Renaisance wax ?

Best Scouting wishes,

Bagheera

 

[Stuart]

prehapes the problem derives from keeping up with demand, Mr Wood can only make so many knives a day before quality starts to suffer, I imagine that he dosnt get the time to lavish them with the amount attention he would like.

Mr wood has a reputation as an exellent craftsman, but on this scale we are almost talking mass production, not somthing one man alone can be expected to do.

may be he is under pressure to make more than he would normally choose to.

 

[leon-1]

True Stuart, but this is not the first time that this has been reported on BCUK , If I recall correctly ADI007 had exactly the same fault with his.

I suppose the answer to it is if you buy one then use either tung or linseed oil on it just on the off chance that the handle isn't fully sealed.

Personally I can make a load of knives for the cost of a woodlore so I won't be bothering to buy one

 

[C_Claycomb]

I think that it is important to make a distinction between Alan's work on the Woodlore, and his work in general. They are not the same. As Stuart said, this has almost become a production run item, and for a one-man-band it can become difficult. I know that due to demand not as much time is spent finishing them as Alan would like.

The money you are paying includes a substantial mark up for Woodlore. If you take the same sum to Mr Wood he has more than once stated that he can make a higher spec knife than the Woodlore design. Therefore it is not entirely fair to compare the price you pay Woodlore with the price that you would pay US makers who are selling direct.

The Scandi grind is VERY difficult to achieve without a dedicated tool. Most such bevels are produced on wheels, even the almost flat grind on the Wolverine is done on a large wheel, albeit with a fancy freehand technique. I would be more bothered that the edge didn't come honed than that there is a slight hollow. If any one bothers to look at the Tormek sharpening system used extensively for wood working tools they will see that hollow grinding of such tools, and microbeveling the edges is not an uncommon approach!

After saying all that, those that know me will know that I have always viewed spending £200+ on such a O-1+Maple handled knife to be ridiculous, and if I had spent so much and had the problems listed above I would be fairly annoyed too. Just please don't lay all the blame on the maker in this case.

 

[Wayne]

Sorry Chirs i do not agree with your analysis. If Alan Wood is not too blame for shoddy workmanship then who is?

Alan makes a good living fron his connection to Woodlore. My own AW Woodlore was also a poorly finished product.
It looked to my eyes more of an apprentice peice. It should not matter if i gave Alan £200 directly or to woodlore every knife leaving the workshop should be of the same standard.

I would not buy another knife from Alan.

 

[Bagheera]

Gentleman,

I agree with everyone of you, the blame shouldn’t be only directed to Mr. Wood but also to Woodlore, as they are in the end the people that sell the Woodlore knife.

If I look at the Alan Wood website and see the Woodsman model for £ 170 which looks like a lot more work to make then the Woodlore knife, even if Woodlore pays Mr Wood £ 170 for making the Woodlore knife (probably they won’t !! ) that would still leave Woodlore a £ 55 profit for each Woodlore knife which would be a handsome profit.

Still I also think that the maker has a responsibility himself, if he can’t produce a certain number and still maintain his standard then he should not make that many, but he should never drop his standard because he gets paid not enough for a series but should have asked more for each knife or make less. I agree 100% that Mr Wood has the right to earn a decent living to.

Still I would think twice before spending close to £ 200 from one of his own creations because of my experience with the Woodlore knife that he has made be it 10, 100 or 500 he finally is responsible for maintaining an standard and not cut corners in the manufacture of them otherwise I personally would just quit making them or make less for more money to be able to assure his quality standard.

In the end I would put the “black Peter” into Mr. Mears Woodlore company because they seem to have slackened their high quality standard perhaps in preference for a bigger turnover and more profit. I could be completely wrong and I can imagine that Mr. Mears has more things to do but as his Woodlore knife is his “flagship” and much sought after by Bushcraft adepts.
I think that he could spend a minute or two to inspect each Woodlore knife personally before giving each of them his OK, this would have saved this whole for me quiet disappointing experience.

Best Scouting wishes,

Bagheera