moccasins

[walkswithnomoccasins]

Hi not sure where this thread should go really!
Aas you can probably guess from my id im very interested in native american culture.
What i have been trying to do for a few weeks now is way up which style of moccasin would be best for use in the UK.
There are several differnt styles of moccasin dependent on the area/cultural group.

One main style of moccasins which have come to mind is styles worn by the eastern woodland tribes (those tribes from the eastern coast to th appalacian mountains).
These moccasins are made from a single piece of elk/moosehide or deer hide. The moccasins are sewn with a single seam which starts at the tip of the toes and finishes at the front of the ankle. I have made and wore this style of moccasins. Production is easy and a pair of unadorned moccasins can be produced in about an hour. The hide forms both the body of the shoe and the sole. As the climate/terrain on the eastern coast of the usa. The only problem i can forsee with this design is that the sole is only moose hide.
In the past the indians would carry patching leather in ther moccasins to patch holes and it wasnt unusual for new moccasisn to be fabricated on the trail

The plains people wore a high top moccasin. This is a long, soled moccasin. The moccasins end just below the knee and traitionally had rawhide soles but it was also common to find thick leather soles. The leather soles would probably more suitable for long use. One draw back is the amount of effort that goes into making these moccasins! It can take around 15hrs to make a pair.

so the question stands
a, woodland moccasins. very easy to make repair and very comfertable quite good on fallen trees and slippery ground.
b.High leg plains moccasins More hardwearing the soles are good on hard or flinty ground but there is a lot of work involved in producing them and they are not simple to make.

 

[Indoorsout]

Have a look at this tutorial on Paleoplanet - http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/15249

I made these with it

 

[moccasintracks]

I wear (am right now) low quarter moccasins most of the time.

Some few pairs I have had have been of the "boot" type.

I usually double sole the bottoms of mine with leather, but in times past I have also used

Tire treads and I just took a pair with a hole worn through the outer sole and dipped it in the rubber coating for tools that I can get at home depot or other hardware stores. The more you dip the sole the thicker the rubber bottom.

You can almost waterproof them, but mostly I make sure I have a wool / wool fleece liner in my cold weather moccasins.

I have also used shoe goo to put dots on the soles of "street moccasins" for traction around home.

Mostly I just have leather mocs that I wear with wool or cotton socks if I need more lining.

Make what suits yourself. I have seen a huge variation of moccasins even made within the same tribe, and modern stuff offers you even more options.

To me it is both about history, and also about practical stalking footwear.

I did buy me a set of herman survivor boots just in case I have to do some "long" walking while the economy tanks.

The paleoplanet has some good stuff.

Jim

 

[trail2]

Can't beat a good pair of "Survivors"
Jon R.

 

[moccasintracks]

yes, my survivors have fit without discomfort from day one. I really like them but they are not as easy for stalking as moccasins, nor as lazy comfortable.

 

[walkswithnomoccasins]

the next question is what would be the best traditional leather to use. I have tired deerskin (far to light and soft). I have bison leather and moose hide and its a toss up beteween the two. but if anyone has any suggestions i would be very grateful

 

[Eric_Methven]

Make them from deer hide but add an outer sole piece of car mat. Pop down to the scrap yard and pick up an old rubber car mat like what you put in the footwell. Cut a couple of soles out from that and stick them on with a good impact adhesive. The advantage of the car mat is that it's thin enough to still feel where you're walking but tough enough to last a good while, even on pavement. Most also have some kind of tread on one side so they will give added grip. No good if you are doing historical stuff and need to be authentic, but for normal use, it's a good solution.

Eric

 

[Mike Ameling]

Moccasins should be considers as ... disposable footwear. They just WEAR OUT FAST in use. And that IS the historical context. That old twist on the FORD vehicle name comes to mind --- Fix Or Repair Daily. The old journal entries have the early traders and Indians repairing mocs every night, or replacing them every couple days when on the trail. Planning for a journey meant making up several extra pairs before they headed out. You can try to extend their usable life by adding extra soles, shoe gunk, or even hard/thick leather. But the still need to be viewed as Disposable Footwear.

As such, any extra time spent making them, or decorating them tends to be wasted. It is nice, but won't extend their life-span.

And those high-top "plains" style mocs do look kool, but that extra leather tends to be mostly just wasted. If you want "high tops" of some sort, make and wear separate leggings. They will last for years without needing repair, instead of days when attached to a moc.

Traditional Indian mocs were made from primarily deer - because of the availability of it. And as you go farther north or west, elk/moose/buffalo get used more. Yes, they are also thicker leathers which does help extend the life-span of the moc. But they still wear out fast in use.

The early French cobblers tried their own version of an Indian moccasin. It was called an Oxhide shoe - solier de beouf. Thick tanned leather was used to form the bottom/sides just like a moc, and the top then had a tung sewn in. They looked a lot like a modern bedroom slipper with that sewn seam running around the top of the toe/foot. It became something of a standard shoe throughout early Canada or New France. They even issued them to milice/militia soldiers at the rate of one per month. The thick vegetable tanned beef hide leather lasted longer in use, and yet was still pretty simple to make when compared with regular European style shoes back then. Just a simple half-circle gathering stitch to pull up that bottom around the toe/tung, and a T seam up the back. A winter version was also made - called a bottle sauvage. They just sewed a tall cylinder of leather on top of that oxhide shoe, and would tie it shut at the top - to keep out snow.

Moccasins are nice and comfortable to use. One early description said that they were ... a civilized way of going barefoot. But too many people expect them to last and work just like modern shoes. Unreasonable expectations.

My spelling might be just a tick off on solier de beouf and bottle sauvage, but doing a web search for oxhide shoes should lead you to some info.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[Minotaur]

I wonder if you could cross a moccasin with a roman sandal?

 

[Eric_Methven]

I wonder if you could cross a moccasin with a roman sandal?

You can indeed. It's called a 'cuaran'.

Eric

 

[Minotaur]

You can indeed. It's called a 'cuaran'.

Eric

Not so sure think this is a question for Wayland. Could only find a brief description of them

What I was thinking of is taking the sole of a Roman sandal (they were hobnailed), and adding a moccasin top. In theory getting the best of both worlds. They must have been doing something right they walked a lot.

Would that be hard to do? Sew two pieces of leather together with your moccasin in the middle.

If you could make them tabi as well, they would be near to perfect, but I wonder how far you want to go, and how hard it would be.

What did the Natives were in the mountains ie. the places with weather like ours? Would they not be better for using here?

 

[leon-1]

Use a Keltoi moccasin, they were developed between the native americans and the european trappers and traders from a woodland mocc.

The design is basically that of a turn shoe and as such the soles can be removed and replaced as and when required.

Moccs weren't truly disposable footwear, but the soles on them were designed to be removed and replaced or repaired on a regular basis. There is record of the Voayageur's replacing / repairing the soles on their moccs on a nightly basis.

When I make moccs I use a three layer sole, inner of hide, mid of felt and outer of hide, the outsole is normally the only part that ever needs replacing.

 

[Eric_Methven]

I see what you mean. Yes, you can put an inner and an outer sole to stiffen and strengthen the mocc, but it's not in any way authentic. The Native Americans didn't have hobnails so using them would just be a modern variation to make life easier. If you were going down that route though, centre seamed moccs would be the best option. Then you could attach the inner and outer sole with the mocc open and sew up the centre seam after the soles were attached. Also you don't need hobnails to keep it all together. I do something similar but I use wooden pegs all the way round the edge of the soles and glue them through all three layers of sole. With the soles glued in place anyway, the wooden pegs just prevent them from de-laminating through hard use. The pegs I use are cocktail sticks cut slightly long, dipped in glue and hammered through an undersize hole poked through all three layers of sole. I do this about half an inch in from the edge and space them every half inch or so. Then I just use a knife to trim the bits of stick so they lie level with the leather.

Eric

 

[Minotaur]

I see what you mean. Yes, you can put an inner and an outer sole to stiffen and strengthen the mocc, but it's not in any way authentic. The Native Americans didn't have hobnails so using them would just be a modern variation to make life easier. If you were going down that route though, centre seamed moccs would be the best option. Then you could attach the inner and outer sole with the mocc open and sew up the centre seam after the soles were attached. Also you don't need hobnails to keep it all together. I do something similar but I use wooden pegs all the way round the edge of the soles and glue them through all three layers of sole. With the soles glued in place anyway, the wooden pegs just prevent them from de-laminating through hard use. The pegs I use are cocktail sticks cut slightly long, dipped in glue and hammered through an undersize hole poked through all three layers of sole. I do this about half an inch in from the edge and space them every half inch or so. Then I just use a knife to trim the bits of stick so they lie level with the leather.

Eric

Was in no way trying to be authentic, as pointed out by people who know much more than me, the authentic have big issues, and I would assume they would get a lot worse in our climate. The reason I was saying use the roman hobnail idea, was it gives you a longer lasting sole. You are walking on them, rather than leather. They also would give you some grip, which I have a feeling none of the more authentic items would. Pre-plastics, the Roman sandal would be my bet for the best footwear, in our sort of climate, and they did use it in basically all climates.

As I said, someone like Wayland would be able to give advice on what was authentic in this part of the world, for over the pond, not sure, but you would have thought, a tribe with our sort of weather conditions, would wear something more solid.

I really like the idea of tabi style footwear, but using axes without steel toe caps scares the ... out of me.

 

[Mike Ameling]

One thing missing is all this discussion is the simple fact that so many people just went barefoot. No shoes/sandals/mocs.

After you run around barefoot a while, your foot does toughen up enough.

I never saw the TV series but did get the book on Surviving the Iron Age. A bunch of people were picked to live for several weeks as residents of a typical Iron Age village. They learned about their "mocs" (early Iron Age shoe versions) and how fast they wear out - especially on graveled paths. And how "cold" their feet got being so wet/damp all the time. They even mentioned in the book how many of the people wouldn't give up their Wellington rubber boots - except when the camera was on.

Problems with feet have always existed over the centuries. So all you really can do is learn to adjust/adapt to conditions.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

p.s. As Eric pointed out, crossing Roman hobnailed sandals and a moccasin top was done centuries ago, and just one version of shoes. And any "shoe" will wear out in time.

 

[Minotaur]

One thing missing is all this discussion is the simple fact that so many people just went barefoot. No shoes/sandals/mocs.

After you run around barefoot a while, your foot does toughen up enough.

Just posted this on another thread, but a lot of the force originally behind lightweight hiking, was for the simple reason that people wanted to walk barefoot.

I never saw the TV series but did get the book on Surviving the Iron Age. A bunch of people were picked to live for several weeks as residents of a typical Iron Age village. They learned about their "mocs" (early Iron Age shoe versions) and how fast they wear out - especially on graveled paths. And how "cold" their feet got being so wet/damp all the time. They even mentioned in the book how many of the people wouldn't give up their Wellington rubber boots - except when the camera was on.

That is what makes me think, mocs in our climate, bad idea. The Roman sandals, a re-encactor explained to me once, are brillant because they allow your feet to breath when it is hot, and your socks to dry when it is wet. Also not like a lot of shoes from those sort of times, they were made to fit you, so custom.

Problems with feet have always existed over the centuries. So all you really can do is learn to adjust/adapt to conditions.

I was forced into doing some hiking in trainers, and it was really nice not to lug those boots along, but the damp was a problem. Hiking sandals, would have solved that problem, because getting your feet wet, or dirty is easy to solve in them. They can just air dry, for a start.

p.s. As Eric pointed out, crossing Roman hobnailed sandals and a moccasin top was done centuries ago, and just one version of shoes. And any "shoe" will wear out in time.

Would be amazed if someone had not done it at some point. I brought the idea up as a way to solve the constant repair needed on standard mocs.

This is actually a really interesting idea, wearing something more suited to enviroment, should make tracking etc easier. That said you still come up against the big no no for me, and that would be using axes, with no foot protection.

 

[Draven]

This thread has been great... really got me thinking!

Firstly, I agree that plain mocs wouldn't be great for British weather. But I do really love the look of them...

I've been thinking of making a pair of the high tops with a few Scotland friendly modifications - firstly, I wouldn't use buckskin (which is traditional - right?) but something more waterproof. It'd be hard meeting that criteria though - the only leather I've seen that's truly waterproof (from the outside, of course, not considering seams and openings, etc) is the stuff used for leather jackets and the like. I do have a leather trenchcoat I don't wear any more, and the leather is lovely and soft - but it's a bit too shiny, IMO. If I could dull it a bit while keeping it waterproof I probably would. Is there any real way to really waterproof thin leather, naturally?
Another thing I'd do would be line it with fur - hair-on rabbit hides can be had for a few quid each. If the waterproofing was right, this would be great, and I doubt you'd even need socks.
The final mod would be the inner and outer sole addition, both being replacable. Might even use rubber soles, though I'd want them to be as discreet as possible.

It sounds like a fun project, if nothing else, so I might just need to give it a go, and see what I come up with - I guess another good thing about this sort of shoe is that you could probably turn them inside out pretty easily to dry.

Of course, at this point, historical accuracy would probably be a distant memory, but still - they'd look good, feel good and once you got used to them they'd probably be great for all but really muddy, swampy and rocky terrain, and I don't think I've been anywhere in Scotland other than coastline that was too rocky to walk the whole way on grass.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[Le Loup]

I wear centre seam woodland Indian moccasins all the time. Moccasins will last a long time if you look after them. My work moccasins have cobbled soles which last longer and are easier to replace. For 18th century Historical Trekking I either use plain moccasins of the same style, or I use ones with an extra sole sewn on.
In my knapsack I carry an awl and sewing items including leather pieces for repair, sinew, needles and linen thread. I also carry a pair of leather soles for slipping inside the moccasins in case a hole should occur on the trail.
You will probably never make moccasins completely waterproof, but you can make them water resistant by using rendered animal fat, a mix of the fat and beeswax, or fat, beeswax and neatsfoot oil. When greasing my moccasins I do it in front of the fire, melting the grease mix and warming the moccasins and rubbing the mix in all over, including the soles.
Le Loup.

 

[Buckshot]

I've made a few pairs, mostly using the Keltio desgin Leon talks about.
I change it slightly adding a few bits of modern design.
The mid sole is modern shoe cusioning material so it never bottoms out and the outer sole is lined with shoe trainer sole cut from a flat sheet

Mark

 

[Le Loup]

the next question is what would be the best traditional leather to use. I have tired deerskin (far to light and soft). I have bison leather and moose hide and its a toss up beteween the two. but if anyone has any suggestions i would be very grateful

If by traditional you are talking 18th century, then practically any leather of the right weight will do. Moccasins were worn by whites and Indians.
I have used deerskin but found I was alergic to the hair or something in the hair. Other than that it was not a problem. There is an 18th century New World record of sheepsin being used and I have a pair of these myself and they work just fine.
If you find they are too light for your use (I wear moccs all the time and have done for at least the past 30 years), then sew extra soles on or cobble them if you use them for work like I do. Also you can of course add thicker inner soles. Either way you will still feel the ground beneath your feet, unlike modern materials!
PS. Only my work moccs are cobbled, my other moccasins are either left plain or have a sewn on extra sole.
Le Loup.