Lofty wiseman type survival pouch question

[Tom89]

Hi, I'm this is my first forum so I'm not quite sure how this works, I tried uploading this before so it may already be up, so sorry if its up twice. Basically I'm new to survival/ bushcraft and I've put together a survival tin and I'm currently putting together an accompanying pouch like in the sas survival guide with a mess tin etc. what my question is , is the pouch an emergency backup in the same way the tin is and you have a main mess tin, cooker etc in your main backpack or is the mess tin and hexy cooker the ones you would use daily in the pouch and that's it?

Cheers

Tom

 

[wingstoo]

It's another layer of personal survival kits, the tin is the last ditch kit when nearly all else has gone, the belt kit is one step above.

I doubt that they would carry a full back up and use it daily, I guess it's another question I'll be asking John when I drop a book around to him in August.

 

[rik_uk3]

Survival tins are a bit of fun, but no real use in the UK. Small first aid kit, mobile phone and spare battery plus £50 cash is a more realistic UK 'survival' kit.

 

[The Lord Poncho]

Survival tins are a bit of fun, but no real use in the UK. Small first aid kit, mobile phone and spare battery plus £50 cash is a more realistic UK 'survival' kit.

Bang on. Further, a backup pouch is only of use to a buschrafter if there is a real danger of being separated from their main kit. Of more relevance to elements of the armed forces where circumstances may require they ditch their main kit.

I suppose there could be particular circumstances in the UK where it would be wise to carry a few bits and bobs for a 'what if' type scenario - i.e. if you live in a remote area and heavy snow is forecast then a shovel, chains and sleeping bag etc in the car would make sense

 

[Man of Tanith]

Whilst it is a military concept per se there is a certain logic in having a few essentials with you at all times
In his first book R Mears tells a tale of heading off from his base camp with mug and knife, stopping to make a brew and slicing himself with his knife resulting in him carrying a first aid kit at all times.
if you are lucky enough to have a secure camp site and amble off for a few hours i think it prudent to carry a few essentials ie knife, torch, first aid kit, and in this heat a water bottle (full)

 

[Tom89]

Cheers for replying everyone. Although when some people are saying about its not useful for the ok. It's not actually going to be used for the uk, I'm going travelling next year and I'm going to be going off the beaten track if it were.

 

[ged]

... I'm not quite sure how this works ...

It works like this:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?output=search&q=%22survival+pouch%22+site:bushcraftuk.com&btnG=


Welcome to BCUK!

 

[sandbender]

"...Basically I'm new to survival/ bushcraft and I've put together a survival tin and I'm currently putting together an accompanying pouch like in the sas survival guide..."

You may enjoy this article from Paul Kirtley.

How to Build a Survival Kit on Bushcraft Principles

 

[Jackdaw]

Welcome to the forum!

 

[rg598]

I carry neither. I am a strong believer that when you go into the woods you should have all the gear you need in your backpack. There is nothing I can put in a tin or a pouch that I don't already have in my backpack. In reality, all those pouches and tins end up in the backpack anyway.

I carry a few items in my pockets. They are there for ease of use, as well as in the unlikely event I lose my pack. However, they are in an easily accessible form, and are not in any type of survival tin configuration.

 

[wingstoo]

Hopefully the old conversations won't raise their heads again.

The SAS Survival handbook was and is the training manual written by John "Lofty" Wiseman for those training for (Selection) and in the Special Air Service, he was encouraged to put it into print to assist his pension fund.

It wasn't written with "Civvies" in mind going for a bimble in the woods.

 

[rik_uk3]

Hopefully the old conversations won't raise their heads again.

The SAS Survival handbook was and is the training manual written by John "Lofty" Wiseman for those training for (Selection) and in the Special Air Service, he was encouraged to put it into print to assist his pension fund.

It wasn't written with "Civvies" in mind going for a bimble in the woods.

Certainly doesn't read that way unless its changed from when I last read it over twenty years ago. Its a good book but as for 'those training for SAS selection I'd have thought it rather basic for their prerequisite needs if they hoped to join the ranks of one of the best special forces units in the world.

 

[wingstoo]

Well as you probably know Rik I have spent many an hour in John's kitchen having a chat about various aspects of the book and the kit that's written about in it.

So sorry Rik, you are wrong, you have also misquoted part of the post above, Note the ( ) around Selection... I have it straight from the man himself that it was not written for civvies, and was the training manual used to train the troopers.

Maybe next time I'm around his place I'll get him to sign in and put it in his own words.

I have just checked out my early 80's copy of the book, on the back cover the three top lines are...

John Wiseman served for 26 years with the Special Air Service
(SAS). His book is their complete course: how to survive outdoors, on
land or sea, in any weather, in any part of the world

 

[Bladeophile]

Just my two cents. My brother and I have carried and read the (mini) version of this book literally everywhere for many years – so I guess this has shaped the way I view J.L.W’s tome as opposed to a quick read through and storing it back on a bookshelf.
My view is that J.W didn’t wish to mislead civvies that his manual represents the skill set of the SAS. Probably only 5% max. It is only a brief outline of the survival component only, and I reckon he imparted truck loads more detail than a book ever could.
I’ve been attempting to use his survival tin (plus my additions) and always found it useful and reassuring. My reading is that J.W. never intended for the tin to be placed in your back pack – the assumption being you could accidentally lose it. Then what? It would be in a trouser pocket say. Re The question about the survival pouch. It seems J.W.’s intention was for these bulkier items stove/mess tin etc to be carried in a belt pouch with no doubling up in main pack. (Weight restriction re hundreds of rounds of ammo, claymore mines, minimi, radio, kitchen sink -what have you) Now if you lose your S.Pouch you still have shelter,fire,water,food at least partly nailed – (the tin being on your person.)
My reading is that he intended the user to customize their S.K E.g. I also carry at least one lighter plus 2 pieces of rubber a la Ray Mears (burns fiercely for some time.) But I don’t have a flare gun. (Maybe I should!)
This only my understanding of his manual fellow bushcrafters and I welcome alternative interpretation and implementation of J.W’s great system so’s I can make any adjustments.

 

[Dreadhead]

welcome aboard

always have my possibles pouch on me when i go out with a wee survival tin. have only ever needed it when i have forgotten matches or something trivial but im sure it will come more in handy when travelling overseas

 

[David Morningstar]

Otzi the iceman had a rigid framed backpack but he also had a pouch sewn into his belt that contained several small flint and bone tools, tinder fungus and pyrite. This is similar to a modern EDC 'survival' tin.

 

[wingstoo]

My reading is that J.W. never intended for the tin to be placed in your back pack – the assumption being you could accidentally lose it.

Quite correct, J.W. carries his in his jacket pocket, no point having the tin in the pack as that is the first thing to get dumped...

Live out of their Bergan
Fight out of their webbing
Survive out of their pockets

The old 58 pattern webbing was designed to be easily broken down into different elements for different needs, the back-pack part was on two hooks and two clips, the clips released and the pack over the head was how it was broken away from the pouches, the poncho roll was on four clips, so easily despatched, the Kidney pouches were on tabs and metal loops, pull the tail of the tabs and the Kidney pouches dropped away, leaving three pouches that were fixed to the belt, two ammunition pouches and a water bottle pouch, which is the basic fighting element of the era... If in a position where you went into survival mode then once your ammunition was expended all you had left was a Bayonet and a 9lb club in the shape of a rifle...The bayonet frog for the 58 pattern webbing was on the Ammunition pouch so it at least had a permanent place on the webbing. most of everything else was in the pockets, as everything else had been dropped off as not required in fighting order.

 

[rg598]

Then it seems like avoiding combat in the woods will prevent most people from getting into any trouble.

The reality is that as much as the theory makes sense, carrying a full bottle on your belt with a stove, etc, is not going to last too long. Sooner or later it will end up in your pack. I used to carry the exact same set up on my belt for the exact same reasons. A few trips later the kit was staying in my pack. It is just too annoying to have on my belt.

As far as the "survival" tin, it makes no sense to me. It is true that if you somehow lost everything (the mythical lost pack), you will have to survive with what you have in your pockets. The reality however is that you probably have those items in your pockets already without the need for a special survival tin. How do you start your fires? A Lighter that you keep in your pocket? Then what is the point of having another one in a container that you do not use. After a while I realized that the items in my survival tin wire entirely duplicated by other items in my pockets because I never wanted to open the neatly packed tin. After a while it just became a redundant item with little use.

I think all of the things (tin, pouch, etc) make a lot more sense for someone who is not in the woods as their primary purpose, much like a soldier would be. For someone like that it would make sense to have a few items useful in the woods somewhere on their body in case they were stranded there. For someone who is in the woods as their primary activity however, they are largely useless in my opinion.

That doesn't mean they are not fun to make.

 

[Bluffer]

Cheers for replying everyone. Although when some people are saying about its not useful for the ok. It's not actually going to be used for the uk, I'm going travelling next year and I'm going to be going off the beaten track if it were.

Tom, if you're travelling outside of the UK then your kit may have to be improvised from what is available locally and tailored to the local environment. No point relying on notes which were aimed at the soldier of the 60's/70's/80's, for example how would you replen your stash of hexi and oxo cubes mid-way through a long trek? My personal thoughts anyways, not having a pop at you bud!

Have you thought about doing a course before you travel? That way you can learn from guys who've been there, done it and bought the t-shirt already. You can then find your own ways of doing it.

Good question though mate, but it is one that raises more questions and will never get a definitive answer. The current teaching is to pack the small stuff into a chest wallet or bumbag and carry a lightweight nylon duffel bag for foraging and keeping a low profile, but obviously what is taught in the forces tends to pertain to isolation in 'non-permissive' environments; whereas survival training available to the public aims to teach rescue/self-rescue in a 'permissive environment'. Although Lofty's book was originally a military tome, things have moved on massively in the last decade.

Do a certain course or attend a certain bushcraft meet and you could always ask Lofty in person, he is very approachable and happy to chat!

 

[wingstoo]

They can be fun, just like the games we had as kids trying to get as many different items in a matchbox as possible.

It still seems to be causing a few people difficulty understanding that the SAS survival hand book and it's contents are not aimed at civvies, it's whole concept was written for Special forces operatives in hostile situations.

If civvy folks want to try and emulate to it that is up to them, but don't confuse the two activities, the likelihood of a Bush crafter going for a weekend in the woods and becoming stuck behind enemy lines is going to be pretty remote, unless you are in a "Red Dawn" invasion...


If you are heading into unknown territory as the OP has stated he is doing it is a good idea to have a back-up kit, just in case... But if you are so confident that your personal trip is so run of the mill that you don't need one then don't bother, just pack a few £/$20 notes in your wallet, and a spare battery for your mobile/cell and you will be fine, after all your not a member of the Elite forces going behind enemy lines are you? Nope, you are a Bush crafter in the local woods where nothing really happens