Limbing, felling and lowering trees. Tree Surgery.

[BigShot]

Hi folks,

Before I get started with this, I know tree surgery is best left to the experts, but that's simply not an option. Too expensive.

Anyway, I've been asked to help someone fixing up a house. The trees in the front garden have grown FAR too big for the space. There's a couple of conifers, a laurel, some very large holly and possibly a few more things buried in the middle of it all.

I've been asked to reduce the height of the laurel and conifers to about 10 feet (they are currently 30+ feet tall) and hack the rest back to a reasonable size while I'm at it.

Now, I don't want to kill myself, I don't want to hurt anyone, I don't want to damage any property and I don't want to butcher the trees.

Can anyone either suggest the best approach (apart from getting in an expert, again, that's just not going to happen unfortunately) or point me in the direction of some reliable information online? All I've been able to find so far has been about felling the trees, and that's only going to happen as a last resort, it would be much better to just bring them under control.

I know about the need to undercut the branch, then cut down outside that cut before removing the stump down near the trunk, other than that though I'm kinda in the dark.

If needs be I can scribble up a plan of the area with the positions and heights of the trees marked on.

 

[spamel]

There are a number of tree surgeon types who frequent these very boards, and I know of at least two who are around your area. I'm sure they may be able to help you out at mates' rates. If they are up for it, I'm sure they'll send you a PM.

 

[BigShot]

To be honest, mates rates might even be a bit too expensive. It's a mega-tight budget - I'm working at below minimum wage already!

Aye, I thought there were some tree surgeons on this site, that's the main reason I asked here and not on the other forums I occasionally read.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for a PM though.

 

[robin wood]

I used to climb for the National Trust when they ran a climbing team in each region and did all tree surgery in house. I can do it and like to do an odd job every now and then for friends. Here are my rules for me taking a job on.

1 No money changes hands. There is no point in me doing a job that the market rate is £750 (with good reason) for £150, I would rather do it for free otherwise I know I am doing them a big favour but they think they have paid me.
2 I don't work over greenhouses, cars, neigbours fences, roads, footpaths or anywhere that anything I cut could reach any of those things in the worse case scenario.
3 I am not insured for climbing and make sure that the tree owner understands that and understands that it is their risk as well as mine.

Frankly the questions you are asking make it clear you have no idea what you are doing and it is very, very dangerous, a 20 foot fall is plenty to break your back and the 10 foot piece you are cutting plenty to flick you off your ladder. How much is your life worth?

 

[Peter_t]

im a qualified tree surgeon and having done this i strongly suggest you don’t try it yourself

ok, so how are you going to get up there? working off ladders is dodgy, if i have to i only do it while being secured by rope and harness as well
has it been topped before? if so the wood will be thick and heavy. you will struggle with a bow saw and using a chainsaw from the top of a ladder with no experience is pretty much suicide
also how will you hold onto the wood you have just cut off? you need both hands free not one holding the ladder

trust me its not as easy as it may look, tree surgeons have the proper training and equipment to do the job and that is the reason for their high prices. even if you manage it without injuring yourself or damaging something, being an amateur and without the knolege of propper prunng techniques it will probably look awful and could cause the tree to become a hazard

im sorry if this all sounds a bit harsh but i’d rather not hear about someone breaking their neck falling off a ladder or loosing an arm with a chainsaw

pete

 

[Nice65]

Another qualified arborist here. Take note of the kind offer and good advice above. I've had twenty years of doing this kind of work and there is just so much that can go wrong. This applies just as much even when you know what you're doing, we just reduce the risks as far as possible.

I doubt any of us tree surgeons here can say we've never had a near miss or seen one. Two people I knew (not well) are now dead, and another hasn't walked for 20 years. Sorry to be a harbinger of doom, but this is the reality of a bad accident.

 

[BigShot]

Firstly, thank you all very much for the concern. I fully expected some "don't do it" type advice and warnings about the dangers and stupid things people try to do (overstretching from an unsecured ladder while wielding a chainsaw one handed, for example). I have no plans to lose body parts or otherwise maim or kill myself.

I climb (rock) and snowboard on glacier so I've got more clue than most when it comes to knots, ropes and securing myself in place to avoid a fall.

I've got no intention whatsoever to work up a tree without being well secured in place.
Someone (not a tree surgeon) suggested tying a ladder to the tree, but I'm somewhat more inclined to get a rope up into the tree and climb that. I imagine I'd go for a heaving line (it's the right term in sailing, dunno about trees) to pull something more sturdy up. From my glacier travel stuff I'd probably have gone for a couple of prusiks (foot and waist) to use as ascenders.

As for securing the bits I'm cutting, the loose plan was to secure them to a higher branch with a rope before cutting, then lower them to the ground (I've got an idea how to do it but would be open to suggestions there)... Eventually felling the main trunk bit by bit with a wedge cut (not sure of the proper term, cutting a wedge and making a horizontal cut from the other side, ending above and short of the wedge) and a rope to encourage it to fall away from me.

No apologies needed, Peter. It doesn't sound harsh at all. Just kinda realistic, something I always appreciate.

Robin, I know I didn't make it clear in the first post, but the main things I'm trying to find out are things like how to secure the branch being cut for a controlled lowering. I don't imagine the whole affair would be all that easy, but I like a challenge and I'm pretty sure that with the right method of securing the branch being cut it'd be safe enough for me to get on with it, especially as I'd be securing myself to the tree rather than just using a ladder.


The more I think about it, the less I think the conifers (not sure what species but I think they are some sort of cypress) should be topped... I'd sooner take them down entirely. They are far too big for the space they are in (I'm sure they looked lovely as a "shrub" when they were first planted). It strikes me that they'll only re-grow again and then not only be too big but potentially rather dangerous too.

So, any advice on things like securing a branch that's being cut or is this going the way of "too dangerous and we're not going to help you hurt yourself" (which is a fair enough stance)? Or pointers to places for that info?

 

[BigShot]

Just to add...
...if any local Tree Surgeons WOULD do the work at a "mates rate" (or even a normal rate that isn't too pricey), do get in touch. I can't say for sure that it'll happen, again the budget's already incredibly tight, but there's no point writing it off until we've got an idea how much it'd cost. I can give more detailed info, plans and photos if you need them and to save unnecessary site visits.

 

[smoggy]

I'd have to say I agree entirely with the posts above outlining the dangers..........I have a +20 ft willow in my front garden which I am slowly trimming back, a bit of a limb at a time, with a view to ending with a pollard. I have to say that I have studied the tree intimately over the years and planned every session, thining out sections to allow safe access to the next etc.........

I'm in no hurry to complete, as long as I'm pruning faster than it grows!

The trees you have mentioned however may well be a different kettle of fish, and sound to be considerably larger. While I am happy to manage my own tree, I doubt I would take on someone elses...........

Good luck, be safe and spend a great deal of time getting to know the tree and planing your approach.........and if at any time you are in any doubt......call an expert.

Smoggy.

 

[spamel]

Sounds to me like Robin has offered his services for free, I'd send him a PM and ask him, you never know, he may even take the wood away for you for his carving projects!

 

[Davidn]

Hi, I normally just look at the threads on this site and don't post anything but as a Tree Surgeon I cannot let this go by without commenting.
You sound like you have the best intentions in the world and are trying to get all the required info to do the job right, fine but what if something goes wrong? You could seriously injure yourself, damage property or worst case somebody else.
Leave it to the experts as somebody already said that is why it costs what it does.

Don't want to sound aggressive but it is a dangerous occupation.

Thanks, David. (would offer to help myself but am in East Sussex!)

 

[Colin.W]

My experience of tree felling has been restricted to site clearance for construction and I havn't done that since the law changed (Jan 1990) following the A&E departments being swamped with people with life threatening chainsaw injuries after the famous storms of oct 1988. I still do some felling and logging but only for myself (not qualified or insured) Cutting a wedge from the trunk to direct the fall is only effective if the tree isn't top heavy one sided ie leaning, boughs dead on one side, stronger growth one sided. also the wind can effect the fall, strong or gusty wind can take a tree.
I have bought a tree down piece by piece by taking the main boughs off on the way up leaving enough to use for standing on with a harness. cutting sections of trunk on the way down being pulled in the direction away from me by my mate. Not ideal but as the tree had a heavy lean in the wrong direction it was the only way we could remove it safely without smashing the summerhouse below

 

[BigShot]

David, I'd call that a fair appraisal.
What if something goes wrong? Well, I guess the same as the other things I do with inherent, unpredictable and uncontrollable risks... near miss, injury or death. (True for sailing, snowboarding and climbing - all inherently risky things, some potentially to others too - maybe I'm just a bit desensitised to things that could end me!)

I appreciate you taking the time to log in and offer your tuppence ha'penny. Thanks.


Spamel, I didn't read it that way but you might be right. I'll have a word. Though, I'd be a bit unsure about dragging someone this far to work hard for nothing.
Thinking about it though - it is in falling distance of neighbours fences and some of it in falling distance of a footpath - so it breaks some of his rules anyway.

I'll have a chat with the house owner and see what he wants to do. I'm not sure how he'd be able to make the budget inflate though - as I said... tight. (the budget that is - not the owner)


Colin - that's the kind of approach I had in mind for some of the work. I'd certainly be taking a careful look at the lean and branches before I took so much as a pair of secateurs to it.

 

[robin wood]

Sorry Bigshot I wasn't offering though I can see how Spam could read it that way. I can see now that you are clearly experienced at risk analysis which wasn't clear at first. I am sure your experience on glaciers etc will have shown you that it takes time to get to know and understand all the risks. If I launched down a glacier on a snowboard, I might survive, then again....

Problem is the risks are not immediately apparent or where you would expect them. They certainly can't be explained or learned in posts on a web forum. The tree is nearly always more dangerous than the cutting tool and accidents most commonly happen either when inexperienced folk go beyond their experience or late in the day when tired and rushing to finish before dark, bad weather or whatever. It wouldn't surprise me if the same was true in climbing and snowboarding.

Tree surgery is high risk, anyone who has been involved for more than a few years knows people that have died or been very seriously injured, the insurance costs a fortune why? because like 18 year olds in powerful cars things do quite often unexpectedly go wrong with nasty consequences.

Your life and health are yours to gamble with but I would suggest making sure that everyone else who is sharing the gamble is aware of the situation.

 

[BigShot]

Robin, thanks for clarifying that. Thought as much.

Yea, not exactly rushing in headlong - I don't expect that playing with ropes and prusiks when training for glacier travel/rescue would do much to educate me about the tension forces found in trees and how they manifest when you release them by cutting.
Couldn't agree more about the time it takes to understand all the risks. I've lived in the Alps on and off and still "don't know the half of it" - there's a lot to learn there too.

Late in the day... I image you're right there. I've seen a fair few people take nasty falls when rushing at the end of the day for "one more run" or to get down before the next bus leaves them waiting ages for another.
Then again, the most serious accidents (including deaths) most often seem to be either experienced people getting unlucky, getting complacent or inexperienced/foolhardy ones getting into a stupid situation. I suppose the same is probably true here!

Your closing line is spot on. If anything this thread has made me think a lot more about the risks to other people and property - and that's something that would put me off far more than risks to myself. Food for thought.

 

[spamel]

Bide your time, there may be another tree surgeon who runs a log burner at home that could do with the wood!

 

[Peter_t]

are you still considering it?

i could tell you how to do it but im not going to. every tree i have worked on has been different, different species have different characteristics. for example elm; it is a very stringy wood and bark. this is a hazard, if you dont know how to prevent it it will split and tear down the stem which if you get caught up in can pull you out the tree.
it is not just different species that vary. trees have defects such as V-shaped branch unions with included bark. these can be very weak but to the untrained eye will look fine to stand on or tie your rope to, until it snaps and you fall out.

these two examples makes up a small percentage of dangers which you will be unaware of. a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and that is why i dont want to give any advice.

I strongly recommend you dont try it!
pete

 

[K.NYPH]

I was also a Tree Surgeon and Woodsman,the bottom line to all of this is ;

WHAT VALUE DO YOU PUT ON YOU LIFE.!

Not a tough question really.

 

[grumit]

you have had a lot of good advice. i can only echoe what has been said it would be best left to the pro's with the kit and knowledge to do it. i have twenty plus years in the trade and still view every tree as a danger sign

 

[bearbait]

Hi there,

I'm not a tree surgeon but I have basic chainsaw qualifications. If you like I can send you a photo of a six inch gash across my upper thigh on my left leg caused by a chainsaw. Fortunately I had protective trousers on and they jammed the chainsaw before it got to my actual flesh (so the cut is clearly seen in the protective trousers). I was standing securely, and apparently safely, on the ground felling a tree of diameter around eight to ten inches - not dangling in mid-air!

A local qualified tree surgeon fell out of a tree relatively recently and, if I remember correctly, was dead before he hit the ground.

If your buddy can afford to buy and do up a house he can afford to get a pro in to do a felling job and not risk your life and limbs at sub-zero wage. IMHO.

A pro knows the risks and takes steps to mitigate them. It's called a Risk Assessment.

Stay safe...