Legality of living in a yurt in the UK...

[Alan De Enfield]

One thing that interests me with 'off grid living' / vanning [is that a real word!]/ boating just mobile living really, is the not having an address thing - no fixed abode. What do you put on your driving licence, how do you receive important communications etc.

There are a number of companies that offer an 'address' and mail services, this can vary between opening, scanning and emailing your mail for you, to forwarding it every so often when you are 'somewhere' (friend, pub, marina etc), or you can even arrange for collection.

There are many 1000's of liveaboard boaters who use these services.

One such example is :

http://www.boatmail.co.uk/

Our services include:

• receiving and holding your mail securely until it is required to be forwarded at no charge (a free UK street address will be supplied)
• sending it to an address of your choice in the UK or are anywhere in the world
• Sending mail to you as we receive it, weekly, monthly or at any time you request
• scan received mail and forward as part of an e-mail (scanning service)
• acting as a forwarding agent for purchases (e.g. from eBay/Amazon)
• receiving an e-mail, printing and posting on your behalf (email2mail service)

Use the address for contact for DVLA, Electoral Role, Government, Banking, Insurance etc

DVLA (Driving and Vehicle Licensing Authority)

The free residential street address can be used as a contact address for the DVLA

More details are available via this link

Electoral Role

The address can be used for Electoral Role purposes

More details are available via this link

Government

The Government requires an address to send communication relative to you. We can receive on your behalf and then send or scan. Such examples are tax, health issues, social security including payments and bus passes

Banking and Insurance

Customers can use the free street address as a contact point for their Banking and Insurance needs.

Nowadays, most of the communication with banks (statements etc) can be made electronically. There are times though that they will need to send you something such as PIN numbers or new/replacement credit/debit cards. We can accept these and forward them on to you wherever you are in the world

Insurance companies still tend to send out reminders and new documentation as a physical mail and we can either forward these to you or scan so you have the details

 

[Theda]

" One thing that interests me with 'off grid living' / vanning [is that a real word!]/ boating just mobile living really, is the not having an address thing - no fixed abode. What do you put on your driving licence, how do you receive important communications etc."

I can help with that Mousey..

I encountered this problem when following the death of my wife in 1995 I sold my house and moved aboard my boat. I arranged with a long term friend and his wife to use their address as my home address in the Uk.
Post Office boxes are fine for mail, but the DVLC will not accept a P.O box for Driving Licence purposes.
My Service pension, Tax, vehicle registration (motor cycle) Insurance both vehicle and boat as well as National Health, Doctors etc: were all given my friends address as my 'official' home address.

To put it bluntly, most Government departments or official bodies don't give two hoots as long as you give a bona fide address capable of being verified by them and they can use that address to contact you for anything, from Tax demands to Doctor's appointments.
It does help if you can make contact with an identifiable individual within any organisation. For instance, I called into Gibraltar on my way from the Mediterranean to the Caribbean and found letters from DVLC threatening court action over my bike and SORN notifications.
I contacted someone at Swansea by telephone, explained the late mail, delays in response etc: and I was told my computer record was being updated and just to give them a shout when I returned to Uk and wanted to re-tax my bike...still got the letter from Swansea, no further problems.

Technically, without my mates address I have been NFA (No fixed abode) since 1995. I still don't live in a house. Like Tengu, I live on a static caravan site which I have to vacate for two weeks each year. Contrary to popular belief non payment of Council Tax is not a reason for closing the sites for a short period each year, it is primarily a site Owner's way of differentiating a 'Holiday' site from a 'Residential' one. The two have different regulations to be met. Fire, rubbish collection, public lighting, the list is lengthy, plus Tax implications for the owner. There is much less responsibility for some things by the owner if the site is Holiday rather than Residential.
As a matter of interest, a percentage of my annual ground rent goes as Council Tax... but there is no street lighting, rubbish collection, road maintenance and quite a few other aspects of living that make the amount less than bricks and mortar dwellers pay.

Theda...if you are still awake after all the above droning on...

A thought struck me when I read your post...What I said above about trying to deal within Council circles with one individual rather than a grey faceless Department is the best method if possible..
For example.. I spoke to the Practice Manager at the local Doctors Surgery and explained I cannot give my van site address as my home address..it is not a residential site, no mail deliveries. She kindly marked all my records with a 'Correspondence address' ...problem solved. When I had previously telephoned and spoke to a nameless surgery receptionist, the " too difficult light" came on and I was told to change Doctors/Surgeries as my friend's address was outside their area....But..But..I actually live on the van site just up the road...Ok I gave up and spoke to the boss at the practice..problem understood and resolved...

Ahhh... I see what you mean! I guess it's down to choosing someone who might be more sympathetic... the only person I've met so far was the Enforcement Officer, who visited me (unannounced) whilst I was working on site... she seemed very nice but advised that I should stop work and make a retrospective application and that I should probably engage a planning consultant... this I did, but the consultant said I was entitled to wait for official notification. This was months ago and the council planning department obviously have other fish to fry as they have still not written to me... (They have the address of my rented accommodation, so no excuses)... The title deeds for the land are at the address of my mother in law, as I was in the process of moving house when I bought the property and had no definite address for my solicitor to write to... Not sure if that complicates things or not...

 

[Theda]

Theda, did you start converting the place BEFORE you got approval?

( you placed the silo there before any approvals you mentioned earlier)

Yes, I'm afraid I started to convert the silo without getting the necessary planning permission, but I stopped work when the Planning Enforcement Officer visited me... the conversion is nowhere near finished, and I don't want to spend any more money if I'm going to have to demolish it... I suppose I should probably make the retrospective application instead of sitting here and doing nothing....

 

[Theda]

There are a number of companies that offer an 'address' and mail services, this can vary between opening, scanning and emailing your mail for you, to forwarding it every so often when you are 'somewhere' (friend, pub, marina etc), or you can even arrange for collection.

There are many 1000's of liveaboard boaters who use these services.

One such example is :

http://www.boatmail.co.uk/

Our services include:

• receiving and holding your mail securely until it is required to be forwarded at no charge (a free UK street address will be supplied)
• sending it to an address of your choice in the UK or are anywhere in the world
• Sending mail to you as we receive it, weekly, monthly or at any time you request
• scan received mail and forward as part of an e-mail (scanning service)
• acting as a forwarding agent for purchases (e.g. from eBay/Amazon)
• receiving an e-mail, printing and posting on your behalf (email2mail service)

Use the address for contact for DVLA, Electoral Role, Government, Banking, Insurance etc

DVLA (Driving and Vehicle Licensing Authority)

The free residential street address can be used as a contact address for the DVLA

More details are available via this link

Electoral Role

The address can be used for Electoral Role purposes

More details are available via this link

Government

The Government requires an address to send communication relative to you. We can receive on your behalf and then send or scan. Such examples are tax, health issues, social security including payments and bus passes

Banking and Insurance

Customers can use the free street address as a contact point for their Banking and Insurance needs.

Nowadays, most of the communication with banks (statements etc) can be made electronically. There are times though that they will need to send you something such as PIN numbers or new/replacement credit/debit cards. We can accept these and forward them on to you wherever you are in the world

Insurance companies still tend to send out reminders and new documentation as a physical mail and we can either forward these to you or scan so you have the details

Many thanks for this... lots of helpful advice here! I could probably attach a postbox to the gate, being as it has always had an address & postcode... I'm sure the post office said that once utility services were in place, I would be placed on a database for receiving mail....or some such thing... does anyone else know this to be true, please?

 

[Alan De Enfield]

Many thanks for this... lots of helpful advice here! I could probably attach a postbox to the gate, being as it has always had an address & postcode... I'm sure the post office said that once utility services were in place, I would be placed on a database for receiving mail....or some such thing... does anyone else know this to be true, please?

Pleased it was of interest / help, but it was really posted in answer to @mousey and his question "what do boaters and people with no fixed abode do for mail and an address ?"

 

[Janne]

Yes, I'm afraid I started to convert the silo without getting the necessary planning permission, but I stopped work when the Planning Enforcement Officer visited me... the conversion is nowhere near finished, and I don't want to spend any more money if I'm going to have to demolish it... I suppose I should probably make the retrospective application instead of sitting here and doing nothing....

If I was you I would deffo do that. You have made yourself a disservice by starting the work beforehand, but hopefully you can salvage the situation!
Before the application, you should sit down with them and have a discussion.
Good luck!

 

[Theda]

If I was you I would deffo do that. You have made yourself a disservice by starting the work beforehand, but hopefully you can salvage the situation!
Before the application, you should sit down with them and have a discussion.
Good luck!

Yes, I know... I was a bit confused by the Permitted Development aspect... not fully understanding that the PD rights had been removed completely by the art.4 directive... Someone told me a silo would be allowed on agricultural land, but of course this property has not been used for farming for many years... so I must bite the bullet and hope for the best... The pump house is safe, of course, as it's been in situ for many years... but whether it could be utilised for anything other than storage of garden tools, etc., due to the size.
It makes you wonder how the planners allowed B1 use, as this would mean an oversized washroom to comply with the disability act., etc., I would imagine... but there wouldn't be much room left for anything else after the washroom was installed...Hmmmm!

 

[Alan De Enfield]

Someone told me a silo would be allowed on agricultural land, but of course this property has not been used for farming for many years... s!

Be very careful if claiming agricultural usage as that would preclude the use as residential.
ANY land with planning permission for any usage can be reverted to agricultural land and any buildings on site can be used as agricultural buildings and NO PLANNING PERMISSION IS NEEDED.

The law would support (for example) that should the Ford Car Factory in Essex close (or Ford decide to use it agriculture) it could be used for breeding / rearing of Cows, storage of tractors etc etc with no application for PP being needed. Other legislation (eg waste, smells etc) may come into play but there is nothing the LA can do to enforce Planning Permission, as there is no development being done.

Section 55 of the Town & Country Planning Act 1990 establishes the meaning of development in planning terms. In section 55(2) the Act also establishes certain operations and land uses that DO NOT constitute development. It states (inter alia):



55(2) The following operations or uses of land shall not be taken for the purposes of this Act to involve development of the land—

(e) the use of any land for the purposes of agriculture or forestry (including afforestation) and the use for any of those purposes of any building occupied together with land so used;



On its face the Act stipulates that the use of land for agricultural purposes is specifically excluded from the definition of development. Crucial to the operation of planning enforcement provisions is the concept of the carrying out of development without planning permission. Where the very activity at issue does not involve development at all, it is not then possible to turn it into development simply for the purposes of enabling enforcement action to be taken against it. If the land use is not development by default then there is no material development in planning terms involved in any change to that use.

So, because the use of land for agricultural purposes is not actually development for the purposes of the Act, it cannot then be considered as development for planning enforcement purposes.

I went thru all of this some 6 years ago and ended up with involving our Local MP, a QC and taking the Chief Executive of the LA to court - they ended up paying me a 'consideration' (compensation) for the inconvenience and incorrect advice (imposition) given by their Planning Officer and the Council Solicitors (neither of which knew the law) and my 'land with business use Planning Permission' reverted to Agricultural with not a wimper - just as it should.

McKellen is one of the leading cases on this point which established that S.55 (or its equivalent reference at that time as this provision has been in planning law for a long time) has a broad interpretation.

In addition McKellen is referred to in the more recent case of JL Engineering Ltd v Secretary of State for the Environment (1993) which was determined in the Court of Appeal on appeal from the High Court.

You will see in this case that there was an original use for industrial storage that then altered to an agricultural storage use for a period of years (1973 to 1978). There was then a reversion to the original industrial storage use which the council took action over as a material change of use. It was not the industrial to agriculture use they were concerned about, but the reversion back to the previous industrial use from agriculture. The argument put for the defendant was that because the change of use to agriculture did not (by virtue of S.55(2)e) involve development, the original use remained intact – questions of abandonment notwithstanding.

The Court held that the change of use to agriculture ‘supplanted’ the original industrial use (thereby removing the chance to revert to it without permission), but although the use for agriculture self evidently involved a change of use, it was not one that was challengeable as it did not constitute development under the Act.

 

[Theda]

Many thanks for that last post... I will have to get my head around it to see what implications it would have if I were to apply for a change of use to agricultural. I think that works well if the property exceeds 12 acres, as then you can definitely put in for temporary residential use.
But my property is under an acre is size, and, as I understand it, without the article 4 directive, the B1 pump house, could convert to residential use without a planning application... It is designated as 'brownfield'... previously developed land, and as such, might be in with a chance for conversion to a live/work artists studio... it's whether or not I coud apply to have the art. 4 removed...

 

[srod]

You need to get on the case and get it all sorted. I would imagine the planning office is a busy place and you'll need to get their attention to make things happen.

It's a great project, you need to get back out there and start swinging your hammer around as soon as possible! That silo will be amazing when it's finished.

 

[Alan De Enfield]

Many thanks for that last post... I will have to get my head around it to see what implications it would have if I were to apply for a change of use to agricultural. I think that works well if the property exceeds 12 acres, as then you can definitely put in for temporary residential use.
But my property is under an acre is size, and, as I understand it, without the article 4 directive, the B1 pump house, could convert to residential use without a planning application... It is designated as 'brownfield'... previously developed land, and as such, might be in with a chance for conversion to a live/work artists studio... it's whether or not I coud apply to have the art. 4 removed...

Section 55 allows for ANY SIZE of land.

I think you have read / been advised about the 5 Hectares (about 12 acres) which relate to other aspects of the law.

Particularly the 'Permitted Development Order 2015' where there are different rights above & below 5 hectares.

Have a read :

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/schedule/2/made

 

[Theda]

You need to get on the case and get it all sorted. I would imagine the planning office is a busy place and you'll need to get their attention to make things happen.

It's a great project, you need to get back out there and start swinging your hammer around as soon as possible! That silo will be amazing when it's finished.

Oh, thanks! But yes... I think it would be fantastic... it really does look good as you pass it on the road... as if it's always been there... doesn't look at all 'wrong'... I just hope the planners agree, though...

 

[Theda]

Section 55 allows for ANY SIZE of land.

I think you have read / been advised about the 5 Hectares (about 12 acres) which relate to other aspects of the law.

Particularly the 'Permitted Development Order 2015' where there are different rights above & below 5 hectares.

Have a read :

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/schedule/2/made

Many thanks for this link... I think I remember reading something about Section 55 and that it had to be an 'outstanding' design... I just wonder whether a silo really qualifies... I mean, they are two a penny round here and are dotted about all over the place...There are two on land just along the road from me... Food for thought, though... I'm just about to have a look at your link...
Thank you!

 

[Theda]

There's a lot of stuff... back in a bit!

 

[gonzo_the_great]

An idea from far field....

Is there any possability of making up a moveable platform, notionally on wheels and jack the whole thing up onto it.
(I can see it's a big structure, so a serious cradle would be req.)
That may be an alternative to demolishing it, if it came to that. As it becomes cargo on a trailer, rather than a permenant fixture. And if you get permission for the building, jack it up and lower it onto it's base again. Even if it is damaged in the process, you are still better off than if you had to breaking the whole thing down.

 

[Stew]

An idea from far field....

Is there any possability of making up a moveable platform, notionally on wheels and jack the whole thing up onto it.
(I can see it's a big structure, so a serious cradle would be req.)
That may be an alternative to demolishing it, if it came to that. As it becomes cargo on a trailer, rather than a permenant fixture. And if you get permission for the building, jack it up and lower it onto it's base again. Even if it is damaged in the process, you are still better off than if you had to breaking the whole thing down.

Isn't that called a caravan?

 

[Theda]

Hi Gonzo.... Great idea, but I'm not sure even if it was cargo it would be allowed... I was reading about motorhomes, which are (obvs) fully mobile, and the fact that they can only be parked on your land for up to 28 days per year... (I think that's correct, but if anyone knows different, please let me know)...
The site itself is very exposed and the wind literally howls across the vast, flat farmland... hardly a hedge or tree for miles! I'm imagining the silo on wheels doing a little jig and working its way along the track... or even taking off!
I'm pretty sure these things need to be anchored down quite securely to comply wih building regs, though..
I think thats a 'go-er' if we are told to get rid... then we could sell it easier....
Appreciate all the ideas though... keep 'em coming!

 

[Alan De Enfield]

I was reading about motorhomes, which are (obvs) fully mobile, and the fact that they can only be parked on your land for up to 28 days per year.

If that was true, how would people that own one be able to park it in their drive ?
(Same with a caravan)

We have had my Brother In Law's Full Size (30 foot+) American Winnebago parked in our yard for the last 5 years. He hasn't been able to use it due to medical problems. We sold it for him last week.

 

[Theda]

If that was true, how would people that own one be able to park it in their drive ?
(Same with a caravan)

We have had my Brother In Law's Full Size (30 foot+) American Winnebago parked in our yard for the last 5 years. He hasn't been able to use it due to medical problems. We sold it for him last week.

Hi... I think the rules are different for residential property... (mine is non residential)...and even then they can be funny... especially where it's parked on the front drive..but as far asn I know, the 28 day rule only applies to non residential...

 

[gonzo_the_great]

As far as I understand....
The caravan restriction is a local bylaw or a restrictive conenant on the property. As a caravan is a moveable item, there seems to be little that the couincils can do within the planning laws. As they really have better things to do that stake out your house, to prove that a caravan has not moved every 28days. And if they did, you would have months of letters and enforcement notices, for you to move it (along by a few feet, or onto the road, take a picture, and back again.
For residential, the 28day rule is more relevant for fixed structures.

I had a visit over the 'substantial tent structure' on the driveway, which had been reported to have been there for some time.
It was a double gazebo, which we were using as a spray booth to re-spray a kit car.
Once I explained that it had only been there for a couple of days and was going to be gone the day after, the oficer was happy. And told me not to rush as I had 28days. (And that he would let the complainer know that he had given that advice. Think he was less than impressed on them wasting his time.)

A friend has similar complaintas about an antenna mast in the garden. It was just a pole propped against the shed, for a temporary test. He asked about if he put it on a trailer on the drive. He was told that was fine as it was moveable and he could reasonably claim to move it every 28days. But if hitched to a vehicle, it didn't need moving at all. Even if it was a SORNed wreck.
he council people seem just as happy for stuff to be adjusted as to be moved off their workload, as that are for you to start doing all the planning paperwork.