Land Access in Scotland

[match]

Just thought I'd start a new thread to make sure that people on BushcraftUK - particularly those in Scotland, were aware of the new Land Reform Scotland Act 2003 coming into force this year.

This act finally lays out clearly the right of access to land for the public in most situations, other than obvious restrictions (land adjoining private houses, golf courses, farmland where farming is taking place, schools, etc).

There is a lot of useful information on this act, and the Scottish Outdoor Access Code (a set of guidelines for landowners and the public drawn up by Scottish Natural Heritage in conjunction with the Government) available here:

Scottish Land Reform

Its nice to see for once a clear set of guidelines in a bushcraft area being laid down in law, and a sensible interaction between Government, landowners and organisations specialising in these areas as to how the land can be used and shared.

 

[willie]

Hey Thank You Very Much For That As I Didnt Really Know Wot Was Happening :biggthump

 

[Wink]

Scotland is way ahead on access issues... and they have great wild places!

But what do the rest of you in England and Wales do about finding places to go? Do you ask permission from landowners, or just sneak into the woods and keep your head down? I live in Norfolk, England, which is very rural, but all of it is owned by other people. They might not be overjoyed at the sight of my woodsmoke wafting out of their woods... Let me know what your experience is.

If it is seen as a problem by others, I have an idea that might help. Feedback please!

 

[Tantalus]

the main points are listed on this pdf file
http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/access/ApprovedCode050604.pdf

pages 40 to 54

with a few minor ammendments here
http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/access/access3.pdf

Thanx Match :You_Rock_

Tant

 

[bothyman]

But don't forget the Bears, you might end up being a Teddy Bears Picnic?? :yikes: :roll: :wave:

 

[willie]

lol

 

[gillmacca]

I know this may not work, but it is just a thought (and maybe somebody can come up wiht a better way).
Maybe everyone can sign an online petition (of sorts, so that there is a record of the number of people who are interested in bushcraft) then someone can pass it on to their local MP, and see if they can get some guidelines set-up for bushcrafting...so we know where we stand.
I know my idea isn't probably the right route, but maybe somebody has an idea how to approach this. This would probably have to be done in England/Wales and Scotland. I would have thought, that you might get more support in Scotland, as there are opne areas that may be able to be used.

 

[gillmacca]

Scotland is way ahead on access issues... and they have great wild places!

But what do the rest of you in England and Wales do about finding places to go? Do you ask permission from landowners, or just sneak into the woods and keep your head down? I live in Norfolk, England, which is very rural, but all of it is owned by other people. They might not be overjoyed at the sight of my woodsmoke wafting out of their woods... Let me know what your experience is.

If it is seen as a problem by others, I have an idea that might help. Feedback please!

What's your idea?

 

[Tantalus]

But don't forget the Bears, you might end up being a Teddy Bears Picnic?? :yikes: :roll: :wave:

hehe it is right on your dorrstep too innit

map here

keep us posted will ya?

Tant

 

[Wink]

My idea is simple but requires a fair bit of work! As part of my job, I get to advise landowners on how to diversify from agriculture and make additional income from their assets (eg renting out old redundant barns for business uses etc). Most of the landowners have acres of woodland that does absolutely nothing for them, other than provide cover for pheasants. I reckon that if people were prepared to stump up a few quid, landowners could be persuaded to grant access to individuals or groups on a daily or weekly basis, on the understanding that they would be lighting fires, making shelters, harvesting wild foods and so on.

My idea would be for a web-based register of available bits of land, where landowners could advertise. Interested parties could book use of the land online for a particular time period, in return for a charge. The cash would give the incentive for the land to be made available, and also encourage farmers to leave it wild, as otherwise bushcraft practitioners would not re-book.

I'm sure many of us live within 10-20 minutes of peachy countryside, but at the moment end up travelling for hours to find places where we can enjoy it... or is that just me?

Whaddya think? If it is a good idea, I could make some enquiries. Some of these guys have thousands of acres, so the impact could be considerable.

 

[gillmacca]

To me, it does sound good, and would make things a lot easier

 

[match]

I was once speaking to a farmer in Lancashire (where I used to live) about this kind of plan - offering up woodland he owned (but didn't use for anything) for walkers, campers, bushcrafters etc.

His response was that, although he would love to do something like that, especially for small responsible groups, he was limited by European Subsidies

Basically, farmers get subsidies for all kinds of things, and one subsidy is paid for leaving land in a 'wild' state - that is just leaving fields/forests etc to get on with whatever they're doing Unfortunately, this subsidy is tied to the condition that you can't use the land for any commercial purpose, or indeed let the land be 'used' in any way. By letting people onto the land for bushcrafting - it might fall foul of this requirement. Yes, it does sound silly, but a lot of the Common Agricultural Policy does - and unfortunately, it is only the British government who enforces te CAP rules rigidly.

As an aside, this reminds me of the farmer somewhere in England who had all his subsidies withdrawn because a MAFF helicopter spotted cows grazing on land he was claiming a fallow subsidy on - took him several months to prove that they were actually wild deer! :?:

 

[Wink]

You will be pleased to know that the old system of subsidies is being changed, with payments to farmers being "de-coupled" from land use, so the issue referred to below should no longer be a problem. In fact, there are also grants available from DEFRA for farm diversification schemes, so Farmer Giles could install a car park, or possibly convert an outbuilding to a shop selling kit and supplies to users, and get it funded by the government. They have about £6 million available for these kind of schemes at the moment!

 

[greg2935]

My idea would be for a web-based register of available bits of land, where landowners could advertise. Interested parties could book use of the land online for a particular time period, in return for a charge. The cash would give the incentive for the land to be made available, and also encourage farmers to leave it wild, as otherwise bushcraft practitioners would not re-book.

I'm sure many of us live within 10-20 minutes of peachy countryside, but at the moment end up travelling for hours to find places where we can enjoy it... or is that just me?

Might work if it looked "official", my experience (based on one person asking a farmer I have never met before) is very negative. I have never been able to get permission to camp on anyone's land for a variety of reasons given. I found farmers slightly more responsive the further away from a town they were but they wanted in the region of £20 to £50 per night which I simply cannot afford.

The second point is I do not drive, consequently I tend to use a train/bus to get as far away from a town as possible and then walk to where ever I am going. I have only had a few problems using land this way, farmers have asked me to leave their land when I've strayed off a foot path (ranging from the polite to the very rude) and I have been caught camping on a farmers land once, and was literally chased off by the farmer, his 2 sons, their dog and one shotgun: not a very nice experience.

I guess you might have more luck as you actually work with them and therefore they may have more trust in you.

Greg

 

[Wink]

I suspect your experience is not too uncommon! I think the problem with "one off" approaches is that the farmer/landowner will consider it hassle to have to deal with you, and therefore want an exorbitant amount of money to make it worth his while. However, if my proposed website could take the hassle off him, and potentially give him an extra income which could be several hundred or even thousand pounds a year, he may be a lot keener to be involved.

I reckon you could charge maybe £10 per day, with 75% going to the farmer, and the rest paying for the admin costs. Bear in mind that farmed agricultural land will make a landowner only £80-100 profit per year per acre, and you can see why they might be interested. Say they could get 10 people per week to pay for 1 day, for 26 weeks of the year, that's £2,600, of which the farmer would get £1,950. That's the equivalent income from farming 24 acres of land. Some farmers are only farming 3-400 acres in total, which may include woodland with no productive use at all.

Am I making any sense?

 

[R-Bowskill]

Interesting idea,

anything that seems to be organised / formal seems to carry more weight, at the moment I'm inthe process of setting up an 'institute' / 'think tank' so that people can get their ideas taken more seriously. after all everything starts with a handful of people doing something. The Church was just a dozen people and now look at it!!!

Maybe if Bushcraft was a recognised sport it would help but any group, even functioning as an 'unincorperated association' which can be quite informal would be easier. plus it would take some pressure off landowners, they wouldn't have to deal with so many individuals approaching them so that's a possible benifit that could be put to them.

What about some of us forming a group to try it, maybe trying to get a piece in something like 'farmers weekly' and seeing what the response is?

 

[Wink]

I think what is needed is to get a feel from the people who use this forum whether it is worth pursuing anything first, so that demand can be assessed. Let's face it, if people on Bushcraft UK are not enthused, then we're flogging a dead horse! Accordingly, those who think that there may be some mileage in it, please comment...

Assuming demand exists, I think that a presentation could be put together, and then the idea trailed past influential individuals in the farming/landowning world. You would be amazed how connected everyone is! Organisations like the Country Landowners Association, accountancy firms, lawyers and farm buying groups all have huge databases of farmers (thousands) that they try to inform/entertain on a regular basis. It would be relatively easy to access one of these networking or professional update events to make a pitch, which would carry a lot more credibility if it came under the auspices of the farmers' organisation.

In my view, it would even be worth going for a VERY high profile landowner or celebrity to espouse the cause... Prince Charles (huge landholdings under the Duchy of Cornwall, likes nature/conservation/connecting people with the land) or even HRH Ray Mears or his mate Ewan McGregor. The worst they could say is no.

What does everyone else think? Are you out there Ray...?

 

[tomtom]

Wink.. it might be worth starting a new thread.. i dont live in scotland.. so i have only just come across this.. sounds like you have some interesting ideas..?

 

[greg2935]

I reckon you could charge maybe £10 per day, with 75% going to the farmer, and the rest paying for the admin costs. Bear in mind that farmed agricultural land will make a landowner only £80-100 profit per year per acre, and you can see why they might be interested. Say they could get 10 people per week to pay for 1 day, for 26 weeks of the year, that's £2,600, of which the farmer would get £1,950. That's the equivalent income from farming 24 acres of land. Some farmers are only farming 3-400 acres in total, which may include woodland with no productive use at all.

Am I making any sense?

Well I would be interested and certainly would be prepared to pay £10 a day but I do not earn enough to justify spending every weekend there, it also depends on how far away this farm will be from me, I think you will need an awful lot of people to make £1000's per year for a farmer and the land can only support a certain number of people (both in terms of fires, human waste (i.e. pooh) and human impact). It will be quite a balancing act.

Greg