Knife Shapening.

[Zammo]

I've used my DC4 quite a bit sharpening my SAK and Frosts Mora, the blades are still not sharp enough to shave hair with, but I think that may have something to do with my sharpening technique.

One thing I have started to notice though is that the knifes have got quite a bit of scuffing on the width of the grind. Is this something you just have to accept is going to happen with a user or am I doing something horribly wrong?

Heres some pictures of the Frosts Mora:

 

[penvisser]

Did you use the diamond side or the ceramic side?

When you have a sharp knife you can keep it sharp by only using the ceramic side.
The diamond side is used only when the edge is damaged, by me.

When ready you strop the knife a few minutes with a leather belt and then should be able to shave yourself, well I mean you forearm and not your face

 

[Zammo]

I was using the diamond side followed by the ceramic side. I followed the instructions on the back of the box, which is this:

If your knife is very dull, we advice you to start with the diamond stone. After restoring the edge to the original shape, de-burr the edge lightly using the ceramic stone in order to get a razor-shape edge.

Start by laying the blade flat on the stone, raise the blade spine approx, the thickness of the blade and start moving the knife in circular motions.

I haven't tried stropping it yet, i'll gve it a go though thanks.

What do you think of the scuffing on the knife is that normal? I think I went a little OTT when I first got the DC4 and hacked it up a bit using the diamond side, when I should have only used the ceramic side.

 

[Phil562]

Yep, looks like a case of DC4 diamond side rash

 

[Longstrider]

I don't know the full instructions that come with the DC4 as I don't have one, but if they are anything like the DMT sharpeners that I use I'd lubricate it with water (I normally just spit on mine ) and use gentle strokes for the last few passes. Then a good session with the ceramic side should see your knife looking a little less scratched.
Stropping on leather loaded with metal polishing paste (I use Autosol from Halfords or stropping compound from Starkiesharp) will see you being able to shave with a nicely polished edge if you get the hang of it.

 

[addyb]

Victorinox recommends sharpening their knives at a slightly flatter angle than a "regular penknife." I don't know why, and I've never bothered with it.

I basically only use a stone when my knives are really badly chipped and dull. The rest of the time I give my knives a quick strop at the end of the day, and every so often I use a piece of cardboard with some buffing compound (courtesy of Old Jimbo) to really strop it. I haven't taken any of my knives to a stone in a very long time.

All you need is a little maintenance!

Adam

 

[pumbaa]

I recently finished reading a book called "the razor edge book of sharpening" They apparently did a lot of research into the subject . They recomend not using water or oil as this only lubricates the stone which in turn reduces its efficency ! The book goes quite deeply into the choice of abrasives that you could use , but as long as you have a realy course and a realy fine you should be able to get a decent edge . As you sharpen a knife you need to grind the relief too . They also recomend using a guide for the edge as this will keep your strokes consistant (which is probably the most important factor) . There are a lot of sharpening systems on the market that do this , meaning even a child could get a razor edge . Some may consider these methods as cheating , But it takes an awful lot of practice to get the consistancy.
Pumbaa

 

[Longstrider]

Isn't the DC4 a diamond hone ? My diamond hones all work best when wetted. The fluid acts as a carrier to help take away the "filings" and to prevent the hone from becoming clogged whilst in use.

 

[pumbaa]

This is the company that wrote the book i was on about
http://www.razoredgesystems.com/
Pumbaa

 

[The General]

Looks to me like you have a very very rough edge there.

You need to get a much finer sharpening stone or fine ceramic stone for starters. Secondly, I don't think from the looks of things that you are using what you have correctly. Thirdly I would get some metal polish like autosol or Flitz and strop on cardboard to finish up.

I was not at all impressed with the DC3 and DC4 stones to be honest. I would consider them emergency field stones for getting a usable edge quickly.

You could invest in the excellent Spyderco Sharpmaker to be honest. It would be a much better home use item.

Diamond abrasives are for very high carbide blades (the Mora is most certainly NOT that!) and for when stock removal and reprofiling are required. Even the most fine diamond hone will be rough compared to a very fine ceramic stone. Spyderco also do excellent ceramic sticks and stones if you see what I mean!

 

[addyb]

This is the company that wrote the book i was on about
http://www.razoredgesystems.com/
Pumbaa

I'm very familiar with that book. I don't actually own a copy, but I once found an article for Popular Mechanics magazine from 1977 in which the author, John Juranitch basically condenses everything in the book to fit into one small magazine article. I read it, re-read it, and read it again and now I'm quite happy to say that I can freehand sharpen any knife known to man and get it 'scary sharp' in just a few minutes. I almost want to brag some more, but I wouldn't want to come off as TOO conceited!

I don't use water on my stones anymore, or oil for that matter. Keeping your stones dry means that you'll have to clean them more often as they easily become clogged, but for the difference it makes to a knife blade I easily consider it worth it.

Because hey, if a guy can shave his face with a double bitted axe, he definately knows what he's talking about!

Cheers,

Adam

 

[Zammo]

A part of the instructions I left out for the DC4 was this:

Use no oil or Water.
(I didn't)

The Ink trick. Colour the edge with a felt-tip pen. You can check the progress in sharpening by observing where the colour is removed.
(Tried this)

To check the sharpness of your knife, pull the edge very lightly on your nail. If it cuts there, the knife is certainly sharp enough for most tasks.
(Failed)

I'm sure I went wrong by concerntrating on the diamond side and trying both moving the balde in circles and also from top to bottom of the stone. Then only using the ceramic side very lightly for less than a minute each time I attempted to sharpen the knife. TBH i'm not to bothered that I scuffed up the blade as its only a cheap one, but I want to try and perfect m technique in perperation for when I sharpen a knife I am making.

I'll try again this time only using the ceramic side and then doing some stropping. I may also give it a go with wetting the stone.

What exactly is envolved in stropping, do you run the blade up and down the inside of a leather belt a few times?

 

[woodchips]

I have been through a few different sharpening methods over the years and in the last year since getting into bushcraft I have bought a set of water stones and made a hoodoo hone and a strop and got some autosol etc then a few weeks ago I got a DC4.

I must say I was very impressed with the DC4. I have the same frost survival knife as pictured and I decided that I would always sharpen it with the DC4 at home or in the woods.

My reasoning was that I wanted a sharpening solution that would always be with me so if I decided to take an extending trip I would not miss my home solution. I have tried lugging water stones into the woods and it wasn't a good experience.

I sharpened the knife from new with the DC4, using the diamond side first to tidy up the bevel and then then progressed to the ceramic side.

I find the ceramic side very fine and produced a razor edge with out stropping. My techique was to hold the knife in my left hand and in my right hand hold the DC4 gripping it at each end. I then have the face I wish to sharpen with completely exposed and facing away from my hand as if I hand picked it up off the table with my fingers and thumbs holding the ends, the same way I pick up a cd.

I then with a swinging action of my forearm rub the face of the stone flat against the bevel both towards and away from the edge and gradually work my way along the whole edge. I find this technique ideal for working around the curve of the knife as well as the flat.

I have used the same technique with the mini DMT stones and can't think of a better way that isn't very time consuming to use a mini sized stone. It doesn't fit with the standard view that the edge should always be pushed into the stone but I have decided I don't really care. It gives me an edge that can shave leg/arm hairs, and although not "scary sharp" it is quick to maintain and if I am having a carving session the stone is always close at hand to touch up the edge and more importantly, I know I could go traveling with this stone for months and always know I can get the knife to the sharpness I want it with no weight to lug around.

Saying that, I don't regret buying the waterstones or making the hoodoo hone as I use them on other knives and enjoy the pristine polished edge that I can achieve while knowing that I still lots to learn about sharpening.

 

[TheGreenMan]

A couple of things to bear in mind about the DC3/DC4 stones, Zammo.

1.When they are new, the diamond side is very rough and will scratch a blade quite badly (particularly a polished Nordic grind – like a Mora). With use the diamond side will become smoother, but just as effective. I was using the diamond side of a DC4 a few nights ago to remove heavy scratching from the edge of a Martindale Golok No2 that I had convexed with hand files (it was a flat grind before I convexed it).

2.The DC3/DC4 are primarily meant to be used with Fällkniven blades, all of which are convexed, and require a different technique to sharpen them. The instruction that says ‘…Start by laying the blade flat on the stone, raise the blade spine approx, the thickness of the blade, and start moving the knife in circular motions…’ is for the thicker blade on a Fällkniven convex grind ,not a thin blade with a Nordic (flat) grind.

3. The instruction on the box that says ‘…If your blade is very dull…’ does not apply to most knives in brand new condition, and certainly not a Mora. The only thing you would have needed to do is to start polishing (honing) the grind right at the edge with the ceramic side of the DC4. I wouldn't recommend laying the Mora flat on it's edge and honing it (I was using a Clipper the other night to whittle some seasoned birch, and as I had levelled the uneven grind on the Clipper with the diamond side, then honed it with the ceramic side, it made the edge too thin and I rolled and chipped the edge badly) you need to hone the small secondary bevel right at the edge to avoid over thinning it and making the edge weak.

If you want to be able to sharpen a knife properly you need to ‘understand’ the blade. I have read dozens of sharpening tutorials and have found that (excellent though many of them were) they are no substitute for ‘understanding' the blade. This will only come with experience, and is part of the learning process, and can’t (in my opinion) be rushed. You will be sharpening a blade one day, and you will discover that something you did works well. And you will keep learning bit by bit, the more you practice. This is a truly joyful experience (although frustrating to start with). When this happens you will be ‘understanding’ the blade. It’s almost a Yoda thing. Accept no substitutes for this.

I am very inexperienced myself, and have used nothing but a DC3/DC4 for sharpening blades for pretty much the same reasons that woodchips states in his excellent post. I have found that a DC4 will sharpen and hone every type of blade from a Spyderco UKPK (which I convexed) to Nordic grinds (Moras and a spear point of the bushcraft type) to Goloks, machetes, and axes. I can get all of them to a ‘shaving sharp’ edge and I don’t even own a strop yet (or Japanese waterstones).

It just takes practice until you ‘understand’ the blade. Something that will help you greatly in doing this is a loupe. There is a lot more going on at an edge that can be appreciated with the naked eye.

Hope this helps, and have fun
Paul.

 

[Zammo]

I practiced a bit the other night and this time only used the ceramic side and followed the advice on here. It produced a very sharp edge, I didn't check to see if it would shave my arm though, will try tonight.

I also worked on my Machete with the diamond side where i'd chipped it and was able to work away parts of the blade that had folded slightly.

Thanks for everyones tips.

 

[TheGreenMan]

I practiced a bit the other night and this time only used the ceramic side and followed the advice on here. It produced a very sharp edge, I didn't check to see if it would shave my arm though, will try tonight.

I also worked on my Machete with the diamond side where i'd chipped it and was able to work away parts of the blade that had folded slightly.

Thanks for everyones tips.

Keep at it Zammo, it really gets to become a pleasure

Best regards,
Paul.

 

[dwardo]

I have an old oil stone of my grandads, waterstones and a DC4 form the group buy. I am certainly no expert but from the experience i have gained i have come to realise that MOST of what you need is practice .
The angle of the blade is all important make sure its even both sides keep checking every few strokes. I also find that different blades are better sharpened on different materials. The high carbon jobbies seem to be better on water stones and more harder the metal the more i lean towards the oil stone and the DC4.
Liek i said no expert but hope this saves you a little time

Also do not under estimate the leather strop aka an old belt an not the thing yer missus does when you tell her your off for the weekend again