Knife licensing by the backdoor?

[nigeltm]

I had an interesting conversation with my father last night. He mentioned that he had bought a katana sword on the carboot sale. Not for himself, but for my uncle who is a 3rd or 4th Dan Aikido instructor. Bearing in mind the threads on here where people have posted up their boot sale finds I asked him to keep an eye open for any interesting sharps or other useful kit.

I was a bit surprised when he replied that it's very difficult to find sharpes on the boots as the Police advise the sellers to put them away as they could face charges. In addition he mentioned that my uncle had been required to fill in forms and "register" his swords at the local Police station. He also said that some anglers have also been asked to register their knives and have been warned of charges if they carry them anywhere other than in their tackle boxes. I questioned this (and sadly even quoted the CJ Act 1988!) as this is contrary to anything that I have heard and what has been stated by Police officers on the UKPoliceOnline forum.

Has anyone else come across this idea of registering knives? When I get a chance I'll have a chat with my uncle for more details but in the mentime any info could be useful.

Please, before it kicks off, this is not a question on the legality of carrying and owning a knife, offensive weapons, etc. There are enough threads on that subject already!

 

[durulz]

Erm, I think I quite like the idea of licensing.
If it meant that I could then have a fixed-bladed knife, of any length, on my person without some Police officer arresting me and saying 'you have to convince the magistrate you had good cause', then I'd probably go for it. Depending on the details, obviously. But in theory a licensing scheme may be a good way for legitimate, responsible, users to do whatever it is they do. So, in theory, I'd support the idea.

 

[Jakata]

I don't think it would be a good idea really. In reality those that use knives illegally would carry on doing so and those of us who use them responsibly would have to jump through more hoops and paperwork just to carry on with our chosen hobby (or whatever you want to call it)

Even if they stopped the sale of knives completely the people that use them illegally would still get them. After all, all you need to kill someone is a sharpened bit of metal, not necessarily a bushy.

Regardless of this, most knife crime is done using basic kitchen knives, not expensive blades or frost moras

 

[Kerne]

Erm, I think I quite like the idea of licensing.
If it meant that I could then have a fixed-bladed knife, of any length, on my person without some Police officer arresting me and saying 'you have to convince the magistrate you had good cause', then I'd probably go for it. Depending on the details, obviously. But in theory a licensing scheme may be a good way for legitimate, responsible, users to do whatever it is they do. So, in theory, I'd support the idea.

I am "naturally" against regulation BUT this seems a good idea if it allows me to carry a knife/saw/axe without worrying about some uninformed, uniformed copper giving me grief. A conversation along the lines of:

"Do you have a licence for that, Sir?"

"Certainly, here it is."

"That'll do nicely Sir."

Beats the hell out of having to justify yourself to someone who cannot understand why anyone would want to wander off to the wilds in the first place.

 

[FreddyFish]

I am "naturally" against regulation BUT this seems a good idea if it allows me to carry a knife/saw/axe without worrying about some uniformed, uniformed copper giving me grief. A conversation along the lines of:

"Do you have a licence for that, Sir?"

"Certainly, here it is."

"That'll do nicely Sir."

Beats the hell out of having to justify yourself to someone who cannot understand why anyone would want to wander off to the wilds in the first place.

Sounds fine if it went like that. but would it?

 

[Melonfish]

hell yeah thats a cracking idea, Mora knife on your belt say, stopped by a copper (naturally whilst out cause its no use to you at a shopping centre)
flash your licence and be on your way. no hastle no fuss no worrying about being caught with sharps where you shouldnt or having to prove your innocence (whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?)

 

[nigeltm]

From what I understood the registration wasn't for permission to carry, but permission to own.

 

[Jaysurfer]

well i hope they have a list and you don't have to fill in a form for each object...

Once you add up my swords and knives i'd spend a week filling in the forms!

 

[Draven]

Katanas may need to be registered as in England and Wales (I think it applies to wales too...) as curved blades over 50cm (iirc) are illegal except authentic pieces and for martial artists. However, I've never heard of it.

The knife bit is untrue. There is no registration for ownership or use of knives in the UK, though I do believe some talk was going on about licensing people to sell knives; in which case a car booter may be breaking the law by selling a knife. Dunno if that's in place though and if so, where.

 

[Ex Member - Sidney Bounty]

Well I will tell you this if their is registration you will end up with more restrictions than you can shake a knife at and you do know were registration leads to confiscation guess you guys did not learn from the gun thing in the UK if anything you should be screaming on the phone and writing letters to deregulate if anything... shaking head at what I am reading in this thread.... did not some guy just get nailed and charged from just having a folding blade in the glove box of his van that he used to cut up apples with how damn sad is that....

 

[Kerne]

Well I will tell you this if their is registration you will end up with more restrictions than you can shake a knife at and you do know were registration leads to confiscation guess you guys did not learn from the gun thing in the UK if anything you should be screaming on the phone and writing letters to deregulate if anything... shaking head at what I am reading in this thread.... did not some guy just get nailed and charged from just having a folding blade in the glove box of his van that he used to cut up apples with how damn sad is that....

I can see your point of view but I think it is generally accepted that the story of the guy with a knife in his van was made up by our scurrilous press who call for complete knife bans one day then print a story like this the next.

 

[_scorpio_]

better not... means i cant have yet another thing because i am in the governments age discrimination target range (under 18)... and my dad would have to have several weeks of work registering all my knives...

 

[Matt.S]

Great idea -- worked so well with pistols didn't it? I'll give the abridged version here for clarity:

1920 Firearms Act: anyone can own/carry/use for legal purposes so long as you get a piece of paper from your police station (unless you're a criminal, child, mentally handicapped or a Bolshevik)
1945: backdoor order from Home Sectretary to Chief Constables: 'no pistols for self defence' (no legislation or even Parliamentary debate)
1997 Firearms Act: no pistols at all for any reason (except muzzle-loaders and low-powered airpistols)
2010: plenty of pistols available illegally, as always.

 

[phaserrifle]

In my opinion, depending on how it is done, it could be a good thing.
basically, you introduce a voluntary "licence" where by a legal user can register with the local constabulary that he is a knife user, for X purposes, usually in Y place.
he can then be given a document stating this, which could be shown to the investigating officer in question evidence of why he has the knife.
equally, officer patrolling an area/event (such as a car boot or simmilar) could be made aware of licenced sellers before hand.
however, this should not be required, nor expected of legal knife users, merely a usefull tool to cut down un-neccecary arrests and holdups for both the officer and the knife user.

in combination with a common sense approach to knives, from the legal system (police, courts ect), the media and the general public, I reckon it could be a usefull tool.

 

[CaptainBeaky]

Thin.

End.

Of.

The.

Wedge.


In other words, no, no, and thrice no!

This sort of thing ALWAYS ratchets, and once you give something voluntarily, legislators will take that as carte blanche to regulate compulsorily, and all of a sudden, there is nothing left.

cf pistols, as per Matt S's post above.

All the registration idea does is to reinforce the concept of the object being responsible for the crime, and we all know what the msot dangerous part of a knife, sword or axe is, don't we, children?

{excuse me while I wipe the spittle of my screen...}

 

[TinkyPete]

Can I make one point/view.......

I think for most people here our knives are tools and not weapons, we use our sharps to make items, cut things (not people). It is a simple item to make living easier.

IMO, a knife registration would end up with the same way as pistols and rifle legistration and basically end up us loosing the ability to do our bushcraft as we do, because no matter how well meaning we are, the people in charge of controlling it would get tighter and tighter controls so we would not be able to live free. It might not start off to control us but all previous control measures have always got tighter and never looser. As said before by people our bushcraft knives are not the ones tended to be used for the knife crime, it tends to be DIY knives (like stanley type) and cooking knives which are easy to find in any home. I think that education about knives and how to use them would be better rather than control. But it does mean that society has a lot of work on it hands as it involves changing peoples ideas (which is always hard).

I try to take as much care as I can, when at work I have a multitool on my belt, I am in the military and it is most certainly a tool for me, but when not in uniform or doing my job I take care of where I store my sharps. when walking in towns and cities and not doing bushcrafty/camping I do not carry anything which is not legal, when camping it stays in by bergen, in the car they are kept in the boot, when doing bushcraft it is on my belt/pocket.

 

[Shambling Shaman]

Can I make one point/view.......

I think for most people here our knives are tools and not weapons, we use our sharps to make items, cut things (not people). It is a simple item to make living easier.

IMO, a knife registration would end up with the same way as pistols and rifle legistration and basically end up us loosing the ability to do our bushcraft as we do, because no matter how well meaning we are, the people in charge of controlling it would get tighter and tighter controls so we would not be able to live free. It might not start off to control us but all previous control measures have always got tighter and never looser. As said before by people our bushcraft knives are not the ones tended to be used for the knife crime, it tends to be DIY knives (like stanley type) and cooking knives which are easy to find in any home. I think that education about knives and how to use them would be better rather than control. But it does mean that society has a lot of work on it hands as it involves changing peoples ideas (which is always hard).

I try to take as much care as I can, when at work I have a multitool on my belt, I am in the military and it is most certainly a tool for me, but when not in uniform or doing my job I take care of where I store my sharps. when walking in towns and cities and not doing bushcrafty/camping I do not carry anything which is not legal, when camping it stays in by bergen, in the car they are kept in the boot, when doing bushcraft it is on my belt/pocket.

Think I can agree on that, nicely put. Think this thread well go for some time

 

[nickg]

Thin.

End.

Of.

The.

Wedge.


In other words, no, no, and thrice no!

This sort of thing ALWAYS ratchets, and once you give something voluntarily, legislators will take that as carte blanche to regulate compulsorily, and all of a sudden, there is nothing left.

cf pistols, as per Matt S's post above.

All the registration idea does is to reinforce the concept of the object being responsible for the crime, and we all know what the msot dangerous part of a knife, sword or axe is, don't we, children?

{excuse me while I wipe the spittle of my screen...}

Absolutely correct - any form of control, once established, will then be shaped and twisted till it does what the legislators want - without regard to the wants and needs of the people using them.
Firearms, dogs, knives, bows - its how the authorities work. They find some public organisation and pressure them to accept the role of 'Controlling' the sport or activity - then they pressure them to continually tighten thier 'Control' parameters, until the organisation is either completely controlled themselves (NRA) or is forced into dissolution (NPA) at which point the controllers are the legislaters thamselves and can do as they wish. It doesnt matter where the control starts - its enough that it starts - as from there on its just time. Well intentioned people will comply out of conciense or naievety thinking that its for the best, and having complied will then force the others into complying by thier tacit acceptance of the situation, after that the wedge is in the door and it will NEVER close again - undder any circumstances. Ask yourself when we were ever given a chance to defend the possession of a locking penknife. And then ask yourself how we could get that restriction lifted or even amended - we cant - there is no forum to do that - purposely so. There is no redress, yes you can argue your case but the home office guidelines will overrule any argument you can put forward and you will loose.

We must not allow it to happen - the thin edge is already there with swords - the ratchet clicked very quietly on that one - it will never go backwards.

Not a rant - statement of simple fact

Nick

 

[Laurentius]

It sounds like an urban legend in the making to me.

I challenge anyone to google and find real evidence of this going on, surely if it were there would be a police advisory somewhere.

 

[wanderingblade]

There is no requirement for anyone in the UK to register their knives or swords - katana or otherwise.

Any 'mate of a mate - heard it it from a bloke in the pub' type stories are a result of the usual hysteria and hype.

One thing worth noting though - that fell at the car boot sale who sold the Katana was guilty of an offence under the Criminal Justice act (1st amendment) so I guess he was lucky not to have been nabbed.

As for selling knives at car boot sales, many organisers prohibit the sale of knives at sales as it is impossible to ensure they are only sold to over-18's (alcohol is usually banned as well) and it presents a 'health and saftey' concern.