knife craft and children

[nick fred]

I wonder if anyone out there can help me; I was observed teaching a day in the wilderness here at my outdoor centre yesterday by three head teachers.
The day can take any form, but we follow a stream down to the sea where we make shelters and fires etc. I introduce my groups to the skill of using fire steels etc. the children are mostly Years 5 and 6, 10 - 11 year olds and as I know you know they love it, and really enjoy the experience of creating a fire from sparks. Sometimes I make feather sticks and use the knife as an axe to split wood down .I always include a bit about how important it is to see the knife being used as a real tool and not a weapon as many young people view knives today. I don't always include a knife in the demo, but sometimes it just seems appropriate or I need to split big or wet wood to burn, instead of using paper wood i have bought with me!
I have only had positive feedback from visiting teachers who have seen the value a) in learning a new skill and b) the value of witnessing a knife being used for what it was intended.
Most have seen Ray Mears on telly and I have never had boys drool at the knife and want to hold, it's just a tool I use.
Having said all that, the Heads , thought the knife set the wrong impression and might just encourage the children to go home and get knives. The knife is the bearclaw DFK , and i don't think it is too big and i really disagreed with the heads. I said i had had no negative only positive feedback and had run many bushcraft courses both for primary school children, secondary children and 'youth at risk'
I was by far the most experinced out of us as the others only had limited knowledge of knives and their uses in the field. One of them suggeted I use an axe instead!
So, I believe firmly in the positives of showing youth the proper way to view knives, and how useful a tool they can be.
I was wondering whether you might have any ideas as to whether there is any literature on this subject or whether there is any anecdotal evidence to suggest the positives or indeed the negatives of using knives in this way with young students.
I would really grateful if you could give me yours or any others views (or point me in the right direction) on this subject, as I feel strongly about the postives, and feel it would be a loss to the whole experience to shy away from this topic.
Hoping you can help
cheers

 

[JohnC]

I'm planning to repeat a fire lighting (ember production with flint/steel, bow drill etc) with a scout group. Last time, I had a small fixed blade, kept it with me in a neck pouch, using it for scraping bark, transferring embers, trimming firedrill. A parent commented (not a complaint) that it was dangerous to have a knife round kids. Like you, I said the knife was used as a tool, not a weapon. This time round I plan to make particular mention of the safe use of a knife. The troop leader is considering a safe knife use evening.
I'd say that any exposure to somone using a knife responsibly and appropriately is good. Being able to justify, if required, the use of a knife in a demo is something I need to be prepared to do in a calm, polite manner.

 

[andyn]

It is clear that the teachers in this example are viewing knives with a modern stereotypical view of what a knive is for. Unfortunately adults are pretty much stuck in their ways and aren't as impressionable as kids. Hence why I think this kind of work is very important with children as it installs an understanding at a much earlier age. If all kids hear about is knives as weapons in the media etc then that is how they will grow up thinking a knife is for. One of my big annoyances at the media in general really. Its like brain washing.

In my opinion the only way to get these teachers to understand is to get them to do it for themselves. I've no ideal of your bushcraft knowledge/capabilites etc but perhaps you should suggest that the teachers come on a trial weekend where they are the ones that need to learn the uses of cutting tools in a wilderness environment. It could even be encorporated into a team building exercise for the teachers with further bushcraft skills.

 

[John Fenna]

Too many people these days, especially politicos, judges and other "responsible" people, are so insulated from the real world that they have no idea about living in it!
They cannot apreciate that theirs is not a normal life-style, with minions waiting on them hand and foot, and that knives are a common tool, occassionally miss used by those that their culture has marginalised!
Come the revolution I know who will be slicing their own fingers to the bone trying to use a knife for the first time!
Teach responsible knife use, along with other tools, and knives will be used responsibly!
A murrian upon idiots in power who deem certain tools weapons!:aargh4:

 

[spamel]

I consider a woodworking plane a tool, I suppose it could be used as a weapon to bludgeon somebody, or to plane their face off! :yikes: A chisel or screwdriver could be a devastating weapon in the wrong hands. Imagine pushing somebodys' face against a revolving belt sander, that'll sting! Yet these are the "tools" that parents allow their kids to use all the time in schools. It is a shame that the fact that the knife (apart from the club, possibly) is the oldest tool known to man has been unfortunately forgotten.

I consider any adult that makes a statement along the lines of knives are dangerous if used around children to be incapable of using a knife safely. It is not the children you should worry about in this case, but the parents. Don't give them a knife!

 

[firebreather]

First of all keep up the good work. Stay calm around people who dont know better and remember its not really their fault , they only realy know what the media tell them. People only really take an interest in things when it is on their doorstep, you have appropriatly taken a knife into an environment they are in. Unfortunatly people are pre programmed by the media to think of blades etc as weapons. I believe the only way forward is to take a deep breath and smile then explian calmly what it is used for and why it is needed.
Try this thread as it might help, a lot of very experienced people on here put it together.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22194

Hope this helps.
Greg

 

[FGYT]

and they considered an AXE a safer alternative or less of a weapon

as for scouts they used to ahve to learn and Pass Knife n axe guess not any more
guess it goes with the no campfire and Vegi sausage brigade that where running the 100yr celebration on Brownsea island in front of a world wide audience

 

[mr dazzler]

Oh dont bring that chesnut up again Our patrol would of had that "plant" on fire one way or another (then got barred fom future "camps" )
When I was dong a joinery course at a college, we needed to cut out some templates from thin card board. without thinking I took out my (legal) shheepsfoot knife to do the job in a few seconds, meanwhile sharp intakes of breath, ooh's, aah's, thats a weapon you shouldnt have that in here..... and that was teen age lad's, the tutor's couldnt give a ######. Never mind theyd all been using chisle's, plane's, saw's etc and there was a palner thicknesser saw bench etc. A grass cutter is a damn sight more dangerous than a knife IMHO (Or a kiddie boy driving a racer car)

 

[Matt Weir]

Well done to anyone that shows kids the safe use of man's oldest tool and instils in them exactly that fact. Of course most kids -and adults only see the dark side of the tool when it used as a weapon and it has clearly been demonised by the media. All the better for redressing that balance and showing it for the versatile tool it is.

 

[Ogri the trog]

Nick,
I'm adding my name to the list of folk who think you are doing great service for the common sense brigade.
I'm lucky in that I live amongst a farming community where most adults carry a knife of some sorts (cheap nasty things with an edge no keener than a fence post in some cases) so some adults know the value of a bladed tool. But I have yet to do what you are doing and actually fight the corner of tool over weapon.

John,
"Murrian" took me a while to find, but its well worth remembering for the next oaf who upsets me!

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[rancid badger]

I think that this approach may be worth trying, however;

The problem, of course, is that you would end up with a load of teachers simply watching what you are doing. If you engage them in actual tool use, you run the risk of a load of teachers going home with nicked fingers and the idea that little Charlene or Bradley will also go home wounded.

Almost all our bushcraft events here at Chopwell have attracted not only serious adults but also either young families ( including kids of 4 upwards) or under 18's with an adult dragged along.
Now then;
This was never in my game plan when I was first asked to instruct bushcraft for the Forestry Commission. I had planned to cater for serious adults who were genuinely interested but had not had the opportunity to have a go,before booking up for something more commercial with a professional bushcraft school .Basically, I was looking at wetting peoples appetites.

Well, we're nearly 5 years down the road and I have to say that in my experience, (previously including 15 years instructing b.c. & survival with the T.A. and cadet force) most kids are safer than adults when learning to use edged tools.

We have had a lot of families as well as; teachers, doctors, lawyers etc. come along and go away re educated as to the true value of the knife as a tool. I always make it clear that there should be no glamour attached to knives and axes-they are tools and are not playthings.

For next year I'm finally getting to target the people I was after all along, with a series of "adults only" events but we will still be staging "family" bushcraft events due to their popularity.

I personally prefer to steer away from school groups, as I do this as a volunteer and don't like the idea of trying to teach kids who would,often, rather not be there in the first place!

Any who! good luck with your project

Steve.

 

[Matt Weir]

I always make it clear that there should be no glamour attached to knives and axes-they are tools and are not playthings.

No glamour in having a tool for the sake of having a tool but in there's nowt wrong with an appreciation of the aesthetics of a beautifully crafted tool using beautiful materials is there Steve (so my Cegga axe tells me).

 

[abushcrafter]

its all the :werd: :theyareon




:Thinkingo :thinkerg:






:BlueTeamE :yikes: :AR15firin :aargh4:


:twak: :yelrotflm ........? >


:AR15firin



:swordfigh :welcome:


date:24,10,07
Anway its all the doo dars (asbos) + the media's fault. For instance when my dad was my age of 12 he could cary a sheaf knife in the street in his pocket but now you can't ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Luckily my Dad trusted me enough to to have a knife when I was 8.

http://www.raymears.com/courses.cfm?course=1&subcat=Junior

 

[pumbaa]

I worked as a volunter teaching bushcraft/survival skills . One of the courses run was for a local police project to stop kids getting drunk and fighting . They had no issues with the teaching of proper knife skills . This course was offered to them if they behaved for a certain period . During the course there were knives , axes and machetes in suppervised use . If the police think it a possitive thing then i cant see why a head should worry too much .
We also ran a club for the local kids , the parents only concern was the Bacon Hunter my rottweiler !!!
My gripe with this kind of attitude seems to be similar to those expressed above a knife is not nesisarilly a weapon . Even a gun could be considered a tool , its a tool for harvesting a food source . Its the attitude of its user that defines it as a weapon (if only the law saw it that way!) . If you are so intent , just about every item in your home could be used to bludgeon , stab , cut or suffocate and dont forget the board game cludo , Proff plum got knocked off with a candle stick !! Does that mean you cant have a uco candle lantern in front of Kids ? I understand how we came into this situation with the medias asistance , but it is getting silly .
Pumbaa

 

[brancho]

I have taught wood carving with the approval of those above me to My scouts and japanese Scouts who loved it.
You are teaching someone how to use a tool.

Can you teach cooking without a knife?
:You_Rock_

Keep it up

 

[ganstey]

"Murrian" took me a while to find, but its well worth remembering for the next oaf who upsets me!

Oh, go on then, tell us. All Google could come up with was endless references to John Murrian.

G

 

[FGYT]

Can you teach cooking without a knife?
:You_Rock_

Keep it up

you probably could as the supermarkets sell a lot of pre preped veg etc and grated cheese, diced and minced meat is avalible
maybe once every thing is avalible pre cut they will ban all knives in public circulation and require FAC level checks and reasons for one at work.

then again what do kids want knifes for they use Hand Guns these days

oh but they cant they are banned ............thats oks then all better now Guess that kid didnt get shot in the head then


oopps :Rant off :

S0rry

Dunc

 

[John Fenna]

Murrian - a disease of cattle, a plague.
See Shakespeare.... "a murrian upon both your houses"

 

[pibbleb]

Pardon the pun but a knife is a double edged sword. It has always been used as a tool but also as a weapon. After all a sharp knife slips through a feather stick as easy as it does someones gut!

So I can understand their concerns, however, you are one of a few who have taken on the re-education of these people, which is only to be admired. I guess it's all about positive reinforcement, showing the knife being used as a tool and only a tool, will turn it in to a tool, in their eyes. A knife at the moment is only a weapon because they only see it being used as a weapon.

As spamel pointed out a screwdriver would have a similar affect as a knife if stuck in someone, but most people just see a screwdriver on the work bench because they see it being used as a tool.

It may be worth considering, that whilst they are misguided, they are probably thinking of the pressure on them from the local authority, governors, parents insurance and negligence claims. Personally I pity their position. It's a real shame that they must worry about a negligence claim, that will probably never happen, that could cost the school so much that it is forced to close. Rather than let the kids learn a new skill.

I thought the idea of a teacher weekend was a great idea, although whilst I see the point about the down side of a teacher hurting themselves it goes back to positive re-enforcement!

A new mantra "a knife is a tool not a weapon a knife is a tool..........."

P

 

[Jedadiah]

This may initially sound a little of center but have you ever heard of the 'Continuum Concept'? Basically it's a premise for raising children that was popular in the 1970's and is based on the way tribes in undeveloped countries have raised their kid's since the year dot. Aztecs, Native Americans, you name them and they are not a million miles away from this idea.

Anyway, the practice is that from birth they are kept with the parents (strapped to them) all day. They observe the way things are done and then do it themselves.

There was a programme on Ch 4 not so long back called 'Bringing up Baby' and one of the mentors used this concept. In the final programme it showed a 2 yr old boy cutting up fruit with a knife. When questioned about this, the parents said that he had seen them using the knife, expressed an interest, been shown how to use it, monitored whilst using it and then supervised since. 'But what if he cut himself?' well, he's been shown the correct way to use it and if he deviates from that and cuts himself, he'll know not to do it again, it's a valuable lesson learnt and was the same when we showed him about fire!

You don't see parents in the jungle making sure that everyone wears goggles and gloves, or saying 'Put that knife down. It's sharp and you may cut yourself!'

Make your own mind's up about what is right and wrong, but i do believe that if the government passed legislation on educating people about things rather than banning it because it is too dangerous, then pursuing it like it does everything else, maybe public opinion may change.