Kielder Forest considered for lynx return

[GGTBod]

Would be crazy cool to see this happen, I know they are elusive creatures but it would be even crazier to actually see one whilst hiking in Kielder forest, i'm all for it, i'd be up for bringing back the bears and wolves too

Kielder as a possible Lynx habitat

 

[Toddy]

They need to get their science straight that bunch rather than relying on sound bites.

Unless they have sufficient numbers then all they're doing is reducing them to a genetic bottleneck within two or three generations.

It's all very well wanting to see wild/wildlife but unless the numbers game is properly sorted out, it amounts to species abuse.

M

 

[mrcharly]

Wasn't there a discussion about how big an area they would need for a stable habitat?

 

[GGTBod]

I remember reading something about so many numbers per 1000 acres to be viable last time there was a thread about it on here but i can't remember the numbers, i've no idea of the logistics regarding stuff like that but from what i read earlier it seems the first introduction of them would be a foot in the door for the species leading to a larger introduction further down the line, like you said Toddy i'd just love to see some wild wildlife, anything bigger than a badger

 

[Adze]

anything bigger than a badger

Deer are bigger than badgers... plenty of those about

 

[GGTBod]

i was thinking more of the predator style of wildlife, I love deer and it is a buzz every time i see one

 

[demographic]

Not gonna happen in Kielder.
Too too many smallholdings nearby.

 

[Harvestman]

Deer are bigger than badgers... plenty of those about

Deer are lower in the food chain, so an area will support more deer than it will a top predator like lynx.

 

[Goatboy]

Playing devils advocate here a bit but a lot of dogs are bigger than a badger and are predators. Not many folk would be happy with them running 'round un-checked.
We've had so long as a nation without a collective memory of large predators that there will always be stiff resistance to it. Look at countries where wolves have only been gone a generation or so at the unrest at plans to reintroduce.
As much as I personally love animals I don't think we've got a broad and diverse enough countryside to have them back without their suffering.

Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.

 

[Adze]

Deer are lower in the food chain, so an area will support more deer than it will a top predator like lynx.

Whiteclaw crayfish are even lower, but there's precious little will to protect the populations of this critically endangered species for some reason. Quite probably it is the headline grabbing minority of madcap and harebrained schemes like the reintroduction of apex predators into ecosystems unable to properly support them which has caused this, rather sad, state of affairs.

 

[santaman2000]

Whiteclaw crayfish are even lower, but there's precious little will to protect the populations of this critically endangered species for some reason. Quite probably it is the headline grabbing minority of madcap and harebrained schemes like the reintroduction of apex predators into ecosystems unable to properly support them which has caused this, rather sad, state of affairs.

Crawfish just aren't cute fuzzy creatures that draw public affection in most of the world.

 

[santaman2000]

Why not go for gold?

Jaguar caught on Arizona game cam in 2003. One was radio collared in 2009

 

[Dreadhead]

Playing devils advocate here a bit but a lot of dogs are bigger than a badger and are predators. Not many folk would be happy with them running 'round un-checked.
We've had so long as a nation without a collective memory of large predators that there will always be stiff resistance to it. Look at countries where wolves have only been gone a generation or so at the unrest at plans to reintroduce.
As much as I personally love animals I don't think we've got a broad and diverse enough countryside to have them back without their suffering.

Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.

Absolutely agree Colin. As nice as it would be, having Kielder on my doorstep, we just can't handle it now. British society has lost the respect for these animals, there will just be too many problems!

 

[nic a char]

"society has lost the respect for these animals, there will just be too many problems"
Despite severe especially farmer resistance, wolves are returning to, thriving in, and extending their range, in the North American continent...

 

[santaman2000]

"society has lost the respect for these animals, there will just be too many problems"
Despite severe especially farmer resistance, wolves are returning to, thriving in, and extending their range, in the North American continent...

They were never endangered on the CONTINENT. Just in the lower 48 states. And we've opened legal hunting season on them in several of those states where they've been reintroduced. And the ranchers are resorting to poisoning them again.

The panther (mountain lion, puma, painter, whatever name) has been extending it's range without any outside assistance accept for southern Florida.

All that said, North America ain't the UK. The states where they're being reintroduced have areas where I can drive 100 miles without seeing a manmade object (apart from the highway itself and an occasional other car) Just open range and cattle or wildlife.

 

[Dreadhead]

As Santaman said. It's all very well in the U.S, but I think the UK is too small to support our society and wild animals of that calibre at the same time anymore. When I said there was no respect for the animals in our culture today, I meant that there will be young lads, thrillseekers, and quite possibly poachers who will seek them out, unaware of the damage they are doing. It only takes one idiot in this country to do something stupid, end up in trouble, and sue the authority for introducing them.

Kielder isn't that large in the great scheme of things, and is a Forestry Commission commercial Sitka Spruce plantation. That means a lot of harvesting machinery running through every several years for clearfelling, which may push them elsewhere. Even if the FC adapt their long term forest plans to CCF with thinning regimes, they will still have the harvesters, excavators, and timber wagons in there.

I would love to see Lynx thriving again in the UK, but I would also hate to see it done as a botched job, and for the lynx population to suffer in the end

 

[THOaken]

Reintroductions are tricky. There are far too many issues regarding the reintroduction of native animals to Britain. From an ecological standpoint introducing an apex predator such as the wolf (or even lynx) will be beneficial to controlling grazer numbers and help the regeneration of woodland as a result of culling primary consumers such as deer. There is also the positive of possibly attracting greater tourism to the country due to the perceived "wildness" factor. There are many positives, but also many negatives to counteract reintroduction such as:

-Cost of population modeling/surveying/tagging and so forth
-Genetic bottleneck in such a small population
-Cost of possibly culling predator numbers if the population booms from the abundance of prey
-The fact that any ecological benefits to introduction predators will take a long time to take effect
-Conflict with farmers
-The threat to livestock by predators (even if the population is enclosed)
-Possible reduction in tourist numbers, especially hillwalkers and so forth

And many more... It's interesting because whilst I'm all for rewilding and seeing Britain in an ecological equilibrium of sorts, the negatives seem genuinely difficult to argue against. It seems to me an impossible goal due to overpopulation/urbanization. We simply don't have enough space.

Edit: I used to be a supreme advocate for the reintroduction of wolves and the rewilding of the landscape and having a non-interventionist management scheme in place, but when you actually look in-depth at the issues one would face as a result of any such implementation then things become tricky.

Edit: And on the subject of this particular reintroduction, I think Toddy is absolutely correct. And the fact, as Hamish says, that it's a Spruce plantation... Well that just doesn't add up to me. You don't want to reintroduce a species such as the lynx in a highly active plantation site, no matter the size.