Iron Pyrite question

[Pappa]

Hi,

I'm having a go at using Pyrite for the first time and I'm wondering whether the sparks produced should be visible in daylight or not. I'm using sharp flakes of chert for the striker and well-dried King Alfred's Cakes fungus as the tinder. From what I understand the technique is to shave tiny fragments off the Pyrite with sharp strokes from the striker. I can see tiny fragments of Pyrite landing on the tinder, but no visible sparks or signs of any heat at all.

I'm a bit stumped???

Pappa

 

[Pappa]

After another half an hour of striking, I've got a bit more to tell. Still no sparks with the chert, but occasionally I was seeing a tiny puff of smoke accompanied by (I think) a sulphurous smell. I assumed that was a good thing (Iron Sulphide burning???).

As I was still seeing no sparks, I tried striking the Pyrite with a steel chisel. This did create some orange sparks, perhaps one every fifty strikes on average (much more frequently when I must have been unconsiously getting the technique right). These sparks were not accompanied by smoke and the smell of sulphur (perhaps I was imagining them before).

I now think I should ditch the chert and get some real flint, but it's conspicuously lacking from the geology of South Wales, so does anyone know where I can buy real flint?

Thanks,

Pappa

 

[oakwright]

Hello Papa,

Send me an address and I wil put some in the post.


Oakwright

 

[Wayland]

There seems to be two types of pyrites available,

One is the shiny "fool's gold" type and the other is a dull iron ore type.

From what I understand it is the latter type that works for fire lighting although I will admit I have not yet tried it myself.

Have you got the right type?

 

[Motorbike Man]

There seems to be two types of pyrites available,

One is the shiny "fool's gold" type and the other is a dull iron ore type.

From what I understand it is the latter type that works for fire lighting although I will admit I have not yet tried it myself.

Have you got the right type?

Part of the problem with using Iron Pyrites is that visually it is almost identical to Marcasite (And chemically as well) . They are both found pretty much together and the test to tell the difference is that Pyrites produces a poor spark, Marcasite produces none at all.

Marcasite tends to be slightly darker than Pyrites, but to tell you the truth, I've been selling this kind of stuff on and off for 15 years and I would not like to guarantee being able to tell them apart.

Using proper flint rather than chert would help as well, but my best bit of advice would be to buy one of Jason01's excellent fire steels

 

[Marts]

but my best bit of advice would be to buy one of Jason01's excellent fire steels

I'd second that. and he'll also throw in a nice sharp piece of flint too.

 

[Pappa]

Hi,

My piece of Pyrite is a sort of a mixture between dark and gold stuff. It is most shiny in areas which have been scratched away. I'm confident that the Pyrite is OK as I'm able to produce sparks with a chisel. I don't know if this suggests the presence of copper, but the ore stains my hands a dark grey-green when I handle it. Is there such a thing as green iron oxide? I've searched google, but the number of results seems conspicuously limited.

I know Pyrite is a very impractical way of starting a fire compared to ferrocerium, firesteels and strike-a-lights etc., but I'm not doing it for practical reasons (I've got a gas lighter for that). I just want to know that should I ever want to, I am able to start a fire like my 'primitive' ancestors did.

Thanks,

Pappa

 

[Motorbike Man]

Hi,

My piece of Pyrite is a sort of a mixture between dark and gold stuff. It is most shiny in areas which have been scratched away. I'm confident that the Pyrite is OK as I'm able to produce sparks with a chisel. I don't know if this suggests the presence of copper, but the ore stains my hands a dark grey-green when I handle it. Is there such a thing as green iron oxide? I've searched google, but the number of results seems conspicuously limited.

I know Pyrite is a very impractical way of starting a fire compared to ferrocerium, firesteels and strike-a-lights etc., but I'm not doing it for practical reasons (I've got a gas lighter for that). I just want to know that should I ever want to, I am able to start a fire like my 'primitive' ancestors did.

Thanks,

Pappa

Hi Pappa, if the ore is staining your hands a dark grey green, it's not Pyrite. Don't forget that the sparks with the chisel could actually be coming off of the chisel itself. When Iron oxidises, it will go a rusty brown colour, not green. Any chance of a pic of the ore? I might be able to give a better id then.

 

[Pappa]

Hi Pappa, if the ore is staining your hands a dark grey green, it's not Pyrite. Don't forget that the sparks with the chisel could actually be coming off of the chisel itself. When Iron oxidises, it will go a rusty brown colour, not green. Any chance of a pic of the ore? I might be able to give a better id then.

Sorry, no digital camera, but here's a bad picture of it on eBay.

I'm sure I'm dealing with what is primarily pyrite though. The areas where more defined crystals are visible clearly look like pyrite, and the color of the scraped clean areas are the same. I've assumed that the ore may contain other metallic ores too (quite common), thus the green hands. Also, authough I was unable to produce sparks with the chert, I did get those little puffs of smoke and the smell of sulphur (indicating Iron Sulphide burning I assume).

I may be wrong, but I really think it is Pyrite.

Pappa

 

[Pappa]

Hi Motorbike Man,

I've just been looking at the various descriptions of Iron Sulphide minerals here: http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/sulfides/class.htm , and I'm beginning to think I've been too quick to assume it must be Pyrite. Sorry.

A bit more investigation is needed methinks.

Regards,

Pappa

 

[Keith_Beef]

Is there anything useful in this thread:
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=177


Keith.

 

[Motorbike Man]

The empirical test for Marcasite is that it doesn't spark. If it sparks and it looks like Pyrites, it is Pyrites

 

[Motorbike Man]

Sorry, no digital camera, but here's a bad picture of it on eBay.

I'm sure I'm dealing with what is primarily pyrite though. The areas where more defined crystals are visible clearly look like pyrite, and the color of the scraped clean areas are the same. I've assumed that the ore may contain other metallic ores too (quite common), thus the green hands. Also, authough I was unable to produce sparks with the chert, I did get those little puffs of smoke and the smell of sulphur (indicating Iron Sulphide burning I assume).

I may be wrong, but I really think it is Pyrite.

Pappa

I would say that that seller has no idea what he is selling as firstly, Pyrites doesn't form from fossilised dung and the botroidal form shown there is not a form that Pyrites takes. In fact, I would say from that photo that it is rough Haematite. This is another mettalic ore although it still isn't fossilized dung

What colour are the freshly exposed parts?

Still can't explain the green hands though, unless that is something coating the outside and not actually part of the mineral itself

 

[KIMBOKO]

I remember a posting on a similar thread.
http://72.36.134.230/community/showthread.php?t=3095&highlight=PYRITES

Keep going til you get to cooperous and spicular green vitriol. All the pyrites I've found has a greenish tinge and smells sulphurous.

 

[Pappa]

Hi Motorbike Man,

I would say that that seller has no idea what he is selling as firstly, Pyrites doesn't form from fossilised dung and the botroidal form shown there is not a form that Pyrites takes. In fact, I would say from that photo that it is rough Haematite. This is another mettalic ore although it still isn't fossilized.

I'm sure the seller doesn't really know, as he has no similar items in his past sales; however I read a few sites which claimed that pyrite can be a common replacement mineral in fossils including coprolites. (I'm not bothered if it is a coprolite or not though, after all, it was the pyrite I was after).

What colour are the freshly exposed parts?

The freshly exposed parts are a pale gold. It is the same all over.

Still can't explain the green hands though, unless that is something coating the outside and not actually part of the mineral itself

My best guess so far is that it may be a homogenised mix of pyrite and another mineral, perhaps Chromium Sulphide or another form of Iron Sulphide (which could oxidise green), or even Iron Sulphate.

Sorry Motorbike Man, it must sound like I keep arguing with you. It's certainly not meant that way; it's just those little puffs of smoke and the smell of sulphur when I hit it with chert have convinced me that it must contain pyrite (at least in part).

I suppose the best thing would be to give it a thorough scrub with a wire brush and see how it oxidises afterwards. Then give it a bash with the flint I've been kindly offered.

Pappa

 

[Motorbike Man]

Hi Motorbike Man,



I'm sure the seller doesn't really know, as he has no similar items in his past sales; however I read a few sites which claimed that pyrite can be a common replacement mineral in fossils including coprolites. (I'm not bothered if it is a coprolite or not though, after all, it was the pyrite I was after).



The freshly exposed parts are a pale gold. It is the same all over.



My best guess so far is that it may be a homogenised mix of pyrite and another mineral, perhaps Chromium Sulphide or another form of Iron Sulphide (which could oxidise green), or even Iron Sulphate.

Sorry Motorbike Man, it must sound like I keep arguing with you. It's certainly not meant that way; it's just those little puffs of smoke and the smell of sulphur when I hit it with chert have convinced me that it must contain pyrite (at least in part).

I suppose the best thing would be to give it a thorough scrub with a wire brush and see how it oxidises afterwards. Then give it a bash with the flint I've been kindly offered.

Pappa

Don't be daft Pappa, I'm as intrigued about this as you are I did try some Pyrites yesterday out in the wood, i got some very cool sparks, but no smoke or sulphurous smell though, in fact in all the years I've been selling crystals and gems, I've never associated a sulphurous smell with pyrites

 

[Pappa]

Hmmm, the plot thickens.

 

[KIMBOKO]

The Scouts went on an incident hike last night and we ended upon the beach. I was showing some of them how to make sparks and catch them with a flint and steel. Then I picked up a flint from the beach and showed them that at least around here flints are easy to find. I then found a piece of Pyrites and eventually showed them some orangey sparks from pyrites and flint.
I haven't attempted to make fire from pyrites and flint because I find it difficult to train the sparks onto my charcloth I'm not sure that charcloth will even work. I was a bit put off by the difficult RM had and the lengths to which you need to go to make a tinder that will definately take the soft orange sparks.
Incidently as the light was fading I noticed that you get a spark from the percussion of two flints or at least a flint on a concrete sea defence. Not too sure how one would catch that spark.
Nick P

 

[Spacemonkey]

Now you could just go to your local fire arms dealer and get some pyrite (that's if they still stock it for flintlocks, or do they use a more modern version? Don't know as I use percussion caps) but where do you find it naturally? I don't think I ever have, what's it like-the black one that is? I have had 'fools gold' in the past but have only ever found that once as a child.

 

[Pappa]

I've had a go with my newly aquired flint and it's producing a few very small sparks; I think it's just down to learning the right technique.

I've also been doing a bit more digging about Iron Sulphides too and it looks as if it's not just pyrite which sparks, but also Marcasite and other Ferric Sulphides like Nickel Iron Sulphide. There's some stuff on the Tracker Trail website.

I've got two lumps of pyrite embedded in some Welsh slate slabs I've got in the garden. I've been trying to resist the urge to bash them out.

Pappa