International Men's Day.

[Deleted member 56522]

That’s an appalling statement to make and basically just makes you sound like a bitter , poorly informed misogynist.

Which part is untrue ... that men die earlier, that men commit suicide more often that men lose their freedom more often, that women get the bulk of health spending ... or that they claim society is unfair to them?

The problem is that in the most important aspects of life, liberty and happiness, the facts show that men do far worse than women. Yet men are attacked for pointing out the injustice against men!

For a start ... let's see increased spending on male health issues to try to equalise life expectancy. If that requires proportionately more spending men's health, then surely that is what is needed to remove the inequality of life expectancy!

 

[nigelp]

PSA tests aren't as straight forward as all that though and there are factors to consider. https://www.macmillan.org.uk/cancer-information-and-support/diagnostic-tests/psa-test

My local Lions club have a deal where you can get the test at a reduced cost and also do an annual ‘roadshow’ to highlight what things to look out for for mens health issues.
However as you point out the test itself can be of little use unless used alongside other diagnosis.

 

[Broch]

That’s an appalling statement to make and basically just makes you sound like a bitter , poorly informed misogynist.

Whereas I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, men that complain about inequality are branded misogynists, but women that complain about inequality are not branded philogynists - yet there are plenty around.

Let's have open discussions and differences of views without name-calling

I do worry about young boys growing up now who are made to believe they have no value. An example is Canoe Wales ShePaddles push encouraging more women to paddle. It should be a push to get more youngsters to paddle - that's what I want my membership subscription to be spent on.

 

[Broch]

Which part is untrue ... that men die earlier, that men commit suicide more often that men lose their freedom more often, that women get the bulk of health spending ... or that they claim society is unfair to them?

Your data may be true, but the last statement that 'women claim society is unfair to them' is a gross generalisation TBH.

 

[Deleted member 56522]

Your data may be true, but the last statement that 'women claim society is unfair to them' is a gross generalisation TBH.

If it's a gross generalisation, it should be easy to find counter examples. I would be interested to see them.

Even the argument about quality is framed in a sexist pro-women way. What can be more important than your right to life, or life expectancy. Surely that is the most important right! Yet, I have not once in my entire life, read or heard of anyone else saying that Men's right to life is an issue that should be dealt with before lesser issues like equal pay.

And, let's not forget that in the 20th century, millions of MEN died in two world wars. MEN made great sacrifices for the benefit of women. Yet, when we hear about "sexual equality", we never hear about the way women profiteered safe at home whilst men endured the most appalling conditions and many died.

Now, let us imagine that it was the other way around. That millions of women had died in WWII, whilst men sat at home and got extra money taking over women's jobs. Then imagine that women died earlier than men and that the bulk of health care funding went to men. There is no doubt whatsoever of the response from women demanding "equality".

The simple fact, the equality movement is the most sexist movement in modern society, deliberately ignoring all the very substantial issues affecting men such as lower life expectancy and a century of attacks on men's interests, by framing the supposed "equality" debate in such a way that it is extremely unfair and unequal and focussing only on the few, relatively minor issues of "equality" that only benefit women.

And, as was just shown today here, if a man dares to highlight the way society is unfair to men ... out come the attack dogs. Because men aren't allowed to demand fairness.

 

[Broch]

But, there are many posts in this thread pointing out inequality but those posters have not been 'attacked' because they were not using biased, prejudicial, generalised terminology.

I'm afraid your last post has made me more inclined to agree with nigelp

The majority of women I know do not complain or go on about inequality and women's rights, and I know a great number that are concerned with how boys have difficulty understanding their role in society.

It's one thing to point out inequality and emphasise the need for better health care etc. but another to blame that on women!

As for your statement about WWII - that smacks of bias in my opinion; there were great sacrifices across the genders.

 

[Deleted member 56522]

As for your statement about WWII - that smacks of bias in my opinion; there were great sacrifices across the genders.

Yes they suffered. Indeed, I read some research (do I need to say by a woman) which said that "women suffered unfairly because ... their menfolk died". So, the male chauvinist pigs made the women suffer by taking the easy way out and dying. Men dying ... was an attack on women ... when millions of men died allowing women to sit in relative safety and comfort at home ... their death was an attack on women!

That kind of thing is happening all the time ... men are being attacked, even when it is men who are suffering the most. It is now considered by women, to be acceptable to attack men for being men ... as in "Toxic masculinity" a term that if a man said "Toxic feminity" would bring howls of protests and yet more attacks for daring to point out that women can be pretty awful sometimes.

And please, women as a group, tacitly support that kind of thinking that attacks men for being men, because they benefit by framing the "debate" on inequality in a entirely sexist way that attacks men and benefits women. Call it unconscious sexual bias by women if you like ... but women as a sex are quite happy to see sexual inequality such as in health care continue when they benefit from that inequality.

"Equality" is nothing of the sort ... it is a one-way street that is controlled by and for women and only benefits them.

 

[Broch]

Oh dear; I think I will leave it there - we have clearly touched a nerve.

But, generalising about a group of people because of the actions of minorities, be it religion, gender, colour, sexual orientation, or anything else, .... is prejudice.

 

[TeeDee]

Oh dear; I think I will leave it there - we have clearly touched a nerve.

But, generalising about a group of people because of the actions of minorities, be it religion, gender, colour, sexual orientation, or anything else, .... is prejudice.

You mean like the term White male privilege ?

 

[Broch]

You mean like the term White male privilege ?

Yep, I didn't say it was one-way; there are loud and visible 'anti-male' and 'anti-white male' movements fanned by the media - but that isn't 'women' in general.

I happen to think that much of the campaigning has done far more harm than good; it's made a whole range of society more entrenched in their opinions and less compromising.

 

[TeeDee]

Yep, I didn't say it was one-way; there are loud and visible 'anti-male' and 'anti-white male' movements fanned by the media - but that isn't 'women' in general.

I happen to think that much of the campaigning has done far more harm than good; it's made a whole range of society more entrenched in their opinions and less compromising.

I agree on some of your points , but not on all.


And thats ok.. !!

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

It's a weird topic... the more we talk about it, the more polarised we become. The less we talk about it, the more uncomfortably generalised we become...

The more we talk about things, the more terms like "toxic masculinity" comes in... who defines that term? When children fall over there are two types of parents, the ones (male or female) that screech and rush over fussing and panicking, sending a child with a mild bash into panicked wails, death throws of agony and eternal torture from the scrape, then there are the other type that will faux chuckle with a "ohhhhhh deeeeeeear wooooopsie daisy, you're alright, dust you off, no tears, off you go"... is the latter considered some form of toxic masculinity (depending on genders involved?)... you've more or less just told the kid to suck it up, man up, deal with the minor set back, stop whinging and get the F' back on with life..

Which is appropriate in daily life? I recently had a leaking cistern, in the process of sorting it all out I bashed my head against the bathroom wall, my reaction was to reach up to my bonce to compress the pain and in doing so I cracked (not literally) my knuckles across the sink... I then had to get some bits, stuck my hand into my pocket to grab my keys and skinned my thumb on the teeth of one of the keys... now admittedly at that point I'd have forgiven myself for curling up into the foetal position and waiting out the rest of the day, but I had lots to get on with and no time to do it... so did toxic masculinity prevail in that manner? Sure did...

Equally since my Dad passed away last year, there has been many occasions where I'll admit my emotions have overtaken the control valves...now my masculinity dictates that I make this personal moment short and private... if anyone asks me am I OK, I'll reply with a cough and a "yeh fine" whilst I fiddle and look down and away at something to hide the emotion...
Would I prefer to be brutally honest? Probably...
Do I feel like it necessary for me to function any better? Not really...
If a male friend I knew was going through a similar time but displayed far more emotion would I look down on him? Of course not... Would I suggest masculine tips that helped me? Most likely...
Would they be suggested from a kind place? Of course...

Now, that all being said, I am a firm believer in there being a time and a place for certain things - toxic masculinity here we go. I've been in many situations in my life where the natural thing to do would be let fear take over leading to either no reactions/behaviour or irrational reactions and behaviour...the man up tactic has been deployed here numerous times whereby the here and now dictates that one man's the F up, gets through the situation then deals with the emotional fall out afterwards when in a safe or safer location...
This works especially well for things like first aid, the job is to deal with the issue at hand and only the issue at hand.

But equally....and finally, I'll always be a shoulder for someone to cry on.. I'll always be a hug for someone, or an ear for them to use.... just don't expect me to be that person whilst in the moment of a sh*t hitting the fan scenario..

 

[TeeDee]

It's a weird topic... the more we talk about it, the more polarised we become. The less we talk about it, the more uncomfortably generalised we become...

The more we talk about things, the more terms like "toxic masculinity" comes in... who defines that term?

Now , unfortunately anyone who wants to critique male / masculine behaviour.

Originally it was this guy:-

The Truth About Toxic Masculinity

The intent when the term ‘toxic masculinity’ was devised was to identify male behaviors that are detrimental to men themselves.

medium.com

Why it should be shunned as a concept is for the people that hear of it a snippet of it, believe it to be something else and implement little acts as the following:-

School in Australia makes male students apologise for ‘behaviours of their gender’

Parents say they were left “completely mortified” after a school in Australia told male students to stand up in assembly and apologise to their female peers for “behaviours of their gender”.

www.lbc.co.uk

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

That's the crux of it I guess...
We've all put our foots in our mouths over the years on hundreds of different topics (I'm sure)... so there will always be a well intentioned male trying to conjure up the inner "soldier on" drive at the wrong moment and as you say, someone takes that incident, runs with it and applies it to vast swathes of social interactions and all of a sudden a perfectly valid form of behaviour becomes labelled as the only emotion possible by some groups and it becomes socially outlawed.

I'm personally not comfortable around the supposed "locker room" chat...Trump-esque comments (nothing political here, purely his grab them by the..... comment), incel behaviour/persuasions and that kinda chat make me cringe...

 

[C_Claycomb]

This was an interesting TED talk.

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

@C_Claycomb really enjoyed that, thank you for posting.
I think it's so important for everyone to stop trying to micro label things and just get on with life.... I remember watching a lot of YouTube stuff with people who are persistently labelling themselves alternative titles because "I won't be defined by my gender".... Good...and nor should you, however you've now defined yourself by an alternative gender etc... which is where I think it's gone wrong.
I grew up being very outdoorsy, I have done a lot of shooting (shotgun, rifles, black powder), camping, rugby, karate etc.. was I defined by my gender? Not that I'm aware of... I did what I enjoyed.
In terms of males v females in the world, I view us all like ying and yang... there are certain things that I can do far far better than my wife can do, so I'm "better", but equally, there are things she can do far far better than I can do... ying and yang is equality...equality doesn't need a line down the middle.

 

[santaman2000]

Isn't it all part of what has been called toxic masculinity?

Often initiated in early years by a well meaning dad possibly mum too.

Ironically, it seems the lack of a masculinity (or at least a masculine role model) has more detrimental effects. Of all then many "mass shootings" here almost all of them have been perpetrated by someone who had no male role model while growing up. Many perpetrated by someone who had been bullied: perhaps if the "toxic masculinity" of the old schoolyard fights hadn't been so effectively banned they might have had a less tragic outlet/release for their anger and frustration.

 

[santaman2000]

Men die earlier, commit suicide more often, lose our freedom more often ... Women get far more spent on them in terms of health care, they used to retire earlier ... and women say society is unfair to them?

I don't know what the real numbers are in the broader world, but limiting just to those I knew personally the suicide ratio has been equal: two of each. The difference being that the men shot themselves and the women overdosed.

 

[Kadushu]

I don't know what the real numbers are in the broader world, but limiting just to those I knew personally the suicide ratio has been equal: two of each. The difference being that the men shot themselves and the women overdosed.

In the UK 76% of suicides were men in 2020 IIRC. It obviously varies slightly year by year.

 

[TeeDee]

Ironically, it seems the lack of a masculinity (or at least a masculine role model) has more detrimental effects. Of all then many "mass shootings" here almost all of them have been perpetrated by someone who had no male role model while growing up. Many perpetrated by someone who had been bullied: perhaps if the "toxic masculinity" of the old schoolyard fights hadn't been so effectively banned they might have had a less tragic outlet/release for their anger and frustration.

Fourth turning theory.

The Fourth Turning Theory | Forecast For The 2020s And Beyond

Crisis. Deglobalization. What the Strauss–Howe generational theory and recurring cycles in history foretell about today's investment climate.

trendsandtrackrecords.com