Insurance update

[sandsnakes]

For those of you who are interested.

Some time ago i reported that I was trying to find a company to do a 'bespoke' package for bushcrafters.

My broker has nearly compleated an insurance package that has both public and personal liability. In essence it will cover you if you fall over break an ankle, chop off a finger (alcohol related events not included) and as a result can't work or some toerag steals your kit. Also damage to farm gates, molestation of sheep and the disturbance of bunnies I have asked him to look in to burning down the forest as well.

Insurance won't cover you if you are where you are not supposed to be and have no permissiom to use that site. But on the otherhand, you can now approach a land owner and say 'I am insured'. This little snippet of info is the mental divide between the 'bushcrafter with responsibility' and a bunch of people getting drunk in the woods.


Sandsnakes

 

[The Joker]

Top bit of work :You_Rock_

 

[Phil562]

Excellant, would be interested to hear more when you have it

 

[M@rk]

I’d be interested. Good work

 

[moduser]

Interesting and thanks for looking in to this. As you say may assist with getting landowners permission, as long as they don't try and abuse the fact you are insured and try and get their barn rebuilt.

David

 

[andyn]

Sounds great, please keep us informed on this.

 

[bent-stick]

Paging Tony

Any way for BushcarftUK to put some weight behind this. It's a splendid idea.

David.

 

[Squidders]

Not sure this is something for an already busy Tony to take on but it's very interesting. I think this a great idea and I appreciate sandsnakes taking the time to do it AND update us lot.

Cheers sandsnakes!

 

[Ed]

Fantastic bit of work sandsnakes.... its always good to see members going out of their way to help the rest of us out. This really could make a difference for those trying to get landowners permission, and will show the public that we bushcrafters are a responsiible lot. Top stuff!! Have some rep


Ed

 

[sandsnakes]

Phew, nice response.

By the way I drink speyside malt ... anything over 12yrs old will do .... (well I thought it was worth a try )



Sandsnakes

 

[bent-stick]

If you are in wombletown any time soon I'll get you one in...Might have to make do with Glenfiddich or Glenlivet. The Hand and Racket has a limited choice...

 

[sandsnakes]

Before i do this bit I will ask that any mod who reads this deletes anything off thread.


Ok people,

What do we need to insure against?

As I see it its two areas.
PA : personal accident and loss.
AD :accidental damage to others property.

So personal accident (PA) is easy and covers everything we do, loss of earnings, loss of kit. Cost of helicopter if you have to be draged off a mountain. This kind of thing exists already.

AD is more tricky and will depend a lot on if you have a certificate of competance or some form of proof that you are competant to do certain things in a responsible manner. ie if you burn the forest down you are liable, how ever if you have a UKBC fire awareness certificate (which does not exist yet, James get writing- you have lots to say old mate!) it can be argued that you took all due precautions and therefore it was an accident not negligence. Certification would not need to be difficult or long, you can learn a mountain of stuff around a camp fire with a beer in your hand. In germany I understand that if you want a hunting licence you have to learn to skin animals etc, etc. So the process of field crafts and responsible action is linked in some areas of the EEC.

Many people will not like this, most of us in bushcraft are aware, thats why we bushcraft. For many of us we do what we do because it represents freedom, insurance dose not hamper this and you have a choice. But like I said earlier, if you are insured or a member of a society that promotes bushcraft it may be the differance between having permission to use the land and a policeman saying 'oh your a bushcrafter, some idiot phoned us and said there was a hooligan around with a knife, sorry to have bothered you madam/sir'.

So my question is what are the things that we do that can cause damage or accident to others? This is serious stuff as we are on a cusp of acceptance and popularity (see the article in another posting).

So I add to the pot

Accidental fire
Acidental animal trauma (disturbing pregnant sheep etc)
Damage to fences
Damage to hedges

All of you farming and forestry types add a bit please.

 

[scanker]

Would it all not come under "public liability"? I'm certainly no insurance expert but would everything not be covered by "public liability" and "personal accident"?

Are you sure you need a "certificate of competence" for any of the above? You can get public liability insurance for selling jam at a farmer's market - I'm pretty sure you don't need any jam-making qualifications for it to count.

This is a superb idea, and I'll definitely be interested depending on cost.

 

[sandsnakes]

jam is off topic
as is certification- it was an illustration of competance or knowlege of correct procedure and responsibility.

But.

Personal accident is you and your stuff.

public liability is about damaging or by accident or negligence harming others or there property.

If you set fire to a wood and some one gets burned or god forbid something worse thats personal responsibility described as public liability.

Please stick to the thread- this is my understanding of what the insurance people tell me. We still need the answers to my question.

 

[scanker]

You asked for input and I'm giving it. I think you're over complicating things by separating out individual issues when they will all be covered as "public liability". The jam issue was an example. It's relevant as an example of something covered by public liability insurance. Don't be so rude.

 

[scanker]

You've edited your post since I made the reply above.

Why are you saying certification is off topic when you brought it up in post #12?

If you're being civil, you can add pollution of a water supply to your list.

I still really don't understand why you're making this list? Surely the insurance company comes up with it. Are you saying that if something is not on this list that you're manufacturing then it won't be covered?

 

[sandsnakes]

What do we need to insure against?

As I see it its two areas.
PA : personal accident and loss.
AD :accidental damage to others property.

So personal accident (PA) is easy and covers everything we do, loss of earnings, loss of kit. Cost of helicopter if you have to be draged off a mountain. This kind of thing exists already.

AD is more tricky and will depend a lot on if you have a certificate of competance or some form of proof that you are competant to do certain things in a responsible manner. As an illustration of this - if you burn the forest down you are liable, how ever if you have a UKBC fire awareness certificate (which does not exist yet, James get writing- you have lots to say old mate!) it can be argued that you took all due precautions and therefore it was an accident not negligence. Certification would not need to be difficult or long, you can learn a mountain of stuff around a camp fire with a beer in your hand.

In Germany I understand that if you want a hunting licence you have to learn to skin animals etc, etc. So the process of field crafts and responsible action is linked in some areas of the EEC.

PA Personal accident is you and your stuff.

AD public liability is about damaging or by accident or negligence harming others or there property.

If you set fire to a wood and some one gets burned or god forbid something worse thats personal responsibility described as public liability.

Please stick to the thread- this is my understanding of what the insurance people tell me. We still need the answers to my question

So my question is what are the things that we do that can cause damage or accident to others? This is serious stuff as we are on a cusp of acceptance and popularity (see the article in another posting).

So I add to the pot

Accidental fire
Acidental animal trauma (disturbing pregnant sheep,pigs, deer and etc)
Damage to fences, gates and stiles?
Damage to hedges
Destruction of corps by fire hay / corn / wood and the like





All of you farming and forestry types add a bit please.

 

[falcon]

If you're doing activities on other people's land their main concern will be Public Liability insurance which protects the landowner and anyone else (ie a Third Party) from any neglience perpetrated by you which brings about damage to themselves or their property. The underwriter arranging your cover may or may not ask you about your competence in the activities you are carrying out.

The other catagory of Personal Accident cover is to cover you if you are injured as a result of these activities. In both cases there is likely to be a limit of indemnity (sum insured). In either case, the Insurer will provide a list of activities which are covered and also which are excluded.

There may be parallels to be drawn if you're shooting over someone else's land. You can get cover from the BASC, the NGO or the Countryside Alliance which includes Public Liability cover and, with some but not all the policies, Personal Accident cover. Have a look at their websites where they can explain it better. I haven't yet found anything for bushcrafting (including fires) probably because I haven't looked in the right places but there's bound to be something out there which is used by the Bushcraft schools .

 

[jdlenton]

what about accidents that injure other bushcrafters we use knives axes and saws what would happen if you had an accident and hurt another in your group. they may choose to take you to court to try and recover loss of earnings / medical costs would this need covering? and if they had their own cover and were hurt by someone would their cover, cover them for that?

What about theft of your own equipment by another do we want to cover that?

What about destruction of corps by fire hay / corn / wood and the like ?

The animal cover will it cover cows pigs deer game (pheasants grouse and gees etc)?

fences and hedges great what about gates and stiles?

umm I'll think on

 

[falcon]

Virtually all of those examples involve Public Liability insurance as someone else (ie a third party) or their crops, animals etc is suffering damage or financial loss as a result of your (hypothetical) negligence . Provided you have a valid policy, it will cover you if you're sued or claimed against in this unfortunate position. In the case of you being injured by a colleague while in the field, then you could either sue him or, provided he had a valid policy, claim against his policy as in that example, you are the injured (third) party. The question of a personal accident policy may apply to cover any perils relevant under the policy.

You will find that most game shoots or syndicates will not let you become a member unless you have PL cover for just the reasons you list..and it's available from the sources I listed in my previous post. If only we could find one for bushcraft.......