IDA is now not approved!

[dommyracer]

Basically they need to make the meths unfit for consumption.

They usually use 0.5% pyridine, and 9.5% Naphtha. It's has to be the Naphtha that is causing the sooting, its a petrolium product, from crude oil. Naphtha is used in coleman fuel etc. You can also produce it from wood.

The above can be subsituted with methanol, which is what is in our IMS I suspect (or a more pure form of naphtha). In the UK i don't know if they are allowed to use methanol to denature alcohol.

HMRC say this:-

Completely denatured alcohol (CDA) is the most heavily denatured alcohol. The standard formulation for CDA produced in the UK is 90 parts by volume of alcohol, 9.5 parts by volume of wood naphtha, or a substitute for wood naphtha and 0.5 parts by volume of crude pyridine. To each 1,000 litres of which is added 3.75 litres of mineral naphtha (petroleum oil) and 1.5 grammes of synthetic organic dyestuff (methyl violet).

Additionally CDA which has been made in another Member State, in accordance with a CDA formulation of that Member State, must be accepted in the UK free of duty. The approved formulations of CDA for all Member States are prescribed in Commission Regulation (EC) No. 3199/93 and are listed at Section 16.

Section 16 gives information on approved CDA formulation for various member states.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...CE_CL_000263&propertyType=document#P526_45910


One of these formulations may be suitable, see what you think

 

[Scuba Pete]

Ahh nice I was looking for that. Reading some of them you really have to be carful what meths you drink, lol.

There are a few compositions (Belgum, france similar) that use methyene (thats just a funtional group) its methanol and propanone (acetone).

Some just have the above in and nothing else which is great. You just want nice short chain alcohols etc that burn cleanly to give just heat, water, CO2 etc. You don't want alot of byproducts.

It seems that there are approved compositions out there that will burn alot cleaner, its just a matter of finding out which one to buy and where it can be bought from.

Just as a test I made up the above composition, ethanol, methanol, acetone. It burn well, no smell (although I do have a cold) no soot at all. I did not use dye this time. If you dont want it to leave a residue behind then you will have to filter it through activated charcoal to remove it.

We just need to find someone that sells it.

 

[nickg]

From what I remember of a conversation and thread about a year ago You have grounds to apply for a license if you have equipment that Can ONLY be used with IDA and cannot be used with any other fuel type. This being so your demonstration that meths may not be used in a confined space with your purpose designed tent heater would appear to give you a solid ground to appeal.
BTW I'm not a lawyer or anything and dont use the stuff myself.

Cheers
Nick

 

[AndyW]

Woodsmoke,

Think you've put it really well.

Andy

 

[dommyracer]

Good work Scuba Pete, so you reckon the Belgian and French formulas might be a goer?

What about the Irish formulation?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Anything that uses methanol and acetone, rather than naphtha should but alot cleaner.

I called some compaines to try and find a seller that stocked it. I was informed that a group in the north of England was distilling the stuff to get ethanol to sell. This may explain the current decision no to issue licences. But I got the impression the guy thought I wanted it for that reason.

I will try some more. If anyone has meths laying about get the manfactures details and try to find out whats in it.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I have called a few suppliers and customs today. From what I have been told there was a group in the north of england that had a bottling plant making vodka from IDA. I guess they were claiming they all had camp stoves. Customs told me no heater/stove would ever get a licence and they could only use CAD (Purple meths). I asked if we could get a TSDA approved (Trade Specific) but that is not allowed either.

The UK has to use a composition that we don't want, ie wood naphtha + pyridine.

There is however light at the end of the tunnel. According to the law, we can import meths from an EU country UK duty free (As long as they comply with section 16). Both France and Belgium have the type we need.

So there you go, we need to find a company willing to ship it over. I am tired now, so someone else can do that, lol. If we find someone we can check to see if the composition is right.

 

[bikething]

how good's your French ????

from a 5l container of Alcool a bruler that was brought back from france for me last week

ETHANOL DENATURE

Alcool ethylique 90% vol
Contient du Methanol ≈ 3%

manufacturer:

CHARBONNEAUX BRABANT s.a.
Z.l le port sec - 5, rue de VALMY
BP 341 - 51100 reims - Tel 03 26 49 58 70
http://www.charbonneaux.com
-------------------------------------------
Societe P.BRABANT
59152 TRESSIN
Tel : 03 20 41 28 05

any help to you?

 

[w00dsmoke]

I recieved a reply for my appeal yesterday.

They have acknowledged my letter and will lead a departmental review of the decision within 45 days. If I hear nothing then the decision will be be upheld then I have a right to take it forward to an appeals tribunal with the VAT and TAX dept...


They have asked for supporting details to help in this review... I've supplied as mush as I think I should so if anyone can assist please feel free to do so...

 

[nobby]

Surely "I am not going to drink it" should be enough of a reason..

As uttered by every alcoholic up and down the land.

 

[nickg]

... I've supplied as mush as I think I should ...

Talking about alcoholics???

 

[w00dsmoke]

I have revcieved information from the appeals officer from a departmental review
over it's refusal to allow me to use and buy IDA for use in my HEATPAL.

The reviewing officer has upheld the origional decision to refuse my license to use and buy ida for the heater stating that:

The manufacturers instructions that I sent do not suggest that only IDA should be used with the stove! The instructions say Denatured or Soot Free Alcohol.

And they have stated that I have provided no evidence to substantiate that I could not use completely denatured alcohol within the stove!

So folks the loophole looks finally to be sewn up now, there is not a snowballs chance in hell of getting enough cheap IDA to use on stoves anymore...

 

[Stew]

Did they agree to reimburse you the cost of the stove?

 

[Voivode]

So, do I understand correctly? You want IDA because it doesn't dirty the bottoms of your pots? And that's all? If I've got it wrong, I'd like to know.

I like my pots sooty; the perform more efficiently.

 

[w00dsmoke]

Did they agree to reimburse you the cost of the stove?

Nope! pmsl

And I want IDA as it's a lot cheaper than meths and cleaner with a lot less smell for inside the Tinde 8 tipi

 

[Aaron]

Tell them you are a Freemason w00dsmoke and they will leave you alone

 

[Rebel]

So, do I understand correctly? You want IDA because it doesn't dirty the bottoms of your pots? And that's all? If I've got it wrong, I'd like to know.

I like my pots sooty; the perform more efficiently.

It's not just the soot, although that is pretty bad. Putting a soot covered pot away with your stuff isn't very nice.

One of the problems I have is getting it on my hands. Once it's on my hands it tends to end up in my mouth or on the food and the taste is foul. Even just a small amount is really awful.

The smell is awful too and if any leaks into your gear it's bad news.

 

[Voivode]

Hmm, I see. I don't use an alcohol stove, so I guess I can't really help. I'm a white gas guy; my stove cost me a good bit, but the fuel is cheap and it boils water quickly. Of course, the whole rig weighs far more than an alcohol stove, so there's the trade.

 

[Chopper]

I have revcieved information from the appeals officer from a departmental review
over it's refusal to allow me to use and buy IDA for use in my HEATPAL.

The reviewing officer has upheld the origional decision to refuse my license to use and buy ida for the heater stating that:

The manufacturers instructions that I sent do not suggest that only IDA should be used with the stove! The instructions say Denatured or Soot Free Alcohol.

And they have stated that I have provided no evidence to substantiate that I could not use completely denatured alcohol within the stove!

So folks the loophole looks finally to be sewn up now, there is not a snowballs chance in hell of getting enough cheap IDA to use on stoves anymore...

I would strongly advise that you keep pushing this up the complaints chain as you have a very genuine complaint.

But be warned if you run out of peole at HMRC and they suggest that you use the "indepentant Adjudicator", she is definatly NOT independant, she is actually full funded and staffed by HMRC, this is not made public as you need to feel that you are getting a fair deal when complaining. This affects all HMRC complaints that go through her office.

 

[Chopper]

Woodsmoke, read your pm's please.