IDA is now not approved!

[Scuba Pete]

They add a few things. Basically to make it undrinkable, so that there is no Duty on it, therefore it's cheap. We buy in 99.99% ethanol, its great stuff. I would borrow some for my stove but the price is insane, and it's in a tiny bottle.

They also add a vomiting agent to make you sick if you drink it. Thats for safety incase it is drank by mistake. That is why you should always label your bottles.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I have just been thinking, I am going to see if there is an easy and legal way of removing the dye etc from meths. The hard part I would imagine would not be breaking the law.

 

[gregorach]

You'd need to distill it in some way, and I'm pretty sure that's illegal. You can't filter out a solute.

 

[Phil562]

Or if your off to France, buy it in large quantitys in the hyper market, around 7 euros for 5 litre iirc.

You save more on this then booze

 

[Scuba Pete]

You might not need to distill it. It could simply be a case of adding something to react with the dye, then filter it out. Activated charcoal for example. I would need to look at the dye and have a think about it. If I get time.

 

[Chopper]

I am sur that you don't need to renew the licence every year.

Am I right ???????

 

[MagiKelly]

I am sur that you don't need to renew the licence every year.

Am I right ???????

I don't need to renew mine.

 

[Phil562]

I don't need to renew mine.

Me neither

 

[w00dsmoke]

Woodsmoke, do you know the specific reason that they believe the current guidelines do not allow for issuing licences for use in stoves? Did they say?

Well they were very specific in the letter and on the phone. Used for any kind of heating or cooking regardless of it being for a specialist hobby or reccommended in the manufacturers literature; it has wrongly been approved in the past and it will no longer be approved for this purpose.

I gave them all the information they needed to check and invited them to come and see the stove and they again stated that after seeking legal advice, they have realised they have wrongly approved recent licenses for the above purposes. I was welcome to appeal but they asked me to look at the legislation again and they reminded me that for this purpose it would not be approved. I jokingly stated "It's not as if people are going to drink it and certainly not me!", he replied "You would be surprised".

We can read between the lines here!


Now the problem I have is I've bought a heatpal 5100 for a tipi and I used meths in it last night (I popped up the road away to Glen Etive for a night to try it out) and I was gagging, nearly choKing with the fumes from the meths burning in the Tipi. It's ok with the door open but all zipped up in a HUGE tinde 8, it's bad! I NEED an alternative supply in Scotland!

 

[dommyracer]

I reckon you could challenge this - this is a quote from the stuff on the HMRC site about uses for IDA

10.2 Can IDA be put to any other uses?
Possibly. The list in Section 17 is not exhaustive. If you wish to put IDA to a use that is not on the list, then please contact the National Registration Unit (see glossary) with the details. If you can provide proof that CDA is not suitable to the intended process, then we will consider approving IDA as an alternative.

So what you need to do is prove that CDA is not suitable.

It all seems pretty over the top to me, the whole thing is essentially an excercise to make sure that people don't obtain Alcohol for drinking or fuel or heating that they haven't paid Duty on.

 

[Oakleaf]

About to do what I'd sworn never to... not technically or legally minded on this subject, so comment is purely off top of head. Sorry if it proves to be a bit daft.

Most bureaucracy has huge inertia. If law specific, then little can realistically be done. If comes down to interpretation or policy, more scope.

The smell etc/ clogging from meths - is it a health risk/ safety hazard? If so, then setting one bureaucracy onto another is the easiest and swiftest way to get results - eg the issue of sound moderators for rifles. Once Health and Safety issues came into the 'discussion' things changed very quickly.

As I said, not sure if a slant here.

 

[Chopper]

If HMRC had advised you over the phone that there would not be a problem in obtaining a licence before you bought your stove and then rejected your application after the stove had been purchased, I feel that you would have a very good argument that you have now wasted your money, and are now being forced to run it on a totally unsuitable fuel.

 

[Chopper]

I think that those of us who have licences should guard them with our lives.

 

[Lurch]

Surely "I am not going to drink it" should be enough of a reason. Provided we are not going to do anything illegal with it and there is no reason to suspect we will, the exception should get issued.

C'mon mate, you know that's not the way Blighty officialdom works. We are NOT to be trusted.

 

[MagiKelly]

C'mon mate, you know that's not the way Blighty officialdom works. We are NOT to be trusted.

I know it is not the way it works but I thought that is the way you would want it. I was surprised you did not think it should be allowed, not that the powers that be did not

 

[Lurch]

Oh, I do!
...but I was amazed the exemptions were issued in the first place so not at all suprised they've changed their minds.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You have to keep controls on chemicals that are sold to the public. You can't blame customs etc for doing it. Without this you could have people buying huge amounts and making illegal moonshine or using it for cheap heating etc.

If you want to buy industrial quanities of a chemical you need a vaild reason. As mentioned I would approach them stating CDA is not viable and see if they will make an admendment. You could also look at the regualtions and see if you need it for one of your hobbies etc.

 

[Scuba Pete]

In the interest of science I did some experiments today.

I don't have any CDA (purple meths) around. Also I did not want to be breaking the law so I thought I would make my own.

Can you believe it, I have methyl red/orange/blue etc but no metyl violet. (The dye they use) I just used some methyl blue, it does not have the same structure but its all I had.

I added some dye to ethanol (IMS) then just used activated carbon and it took the colour away without a problem. I suspect it will do the same for methyl violet. However looking at the composition of CDA the amount of dye is so tiny, also the type of dye it is I very much doubt this is causing sooting or the smell.

My second experiment. I burnt equal qantities of ethanol with and without dye. Both burned clean not giving any soot at all. Again this is metyl blue but I don't think its the dye at all. The dye in the meths you buy is only 0.709g in 378.5 litres.

Basically they need to make the meths unfit for consumption.

They usually use 0.5% pyridine, and 9.5% Naphtha. It's has to be the Naphtha that is causing the sooting, its a petrolium product, from crude oil. Naphtha is used in coleman fuel etc. You can also produce it from wood.

The above can be subsituted with methanol, which is what is in our IMS I suspect (or a more pure form of naphtha). In the UK i don't know if they are allowed to use methanol to denature alcohol.

Methanol burns clean just like ethanol, this is what I suspect gives us pans without soot.

We can easily remove the naphtha however this would not be allowed.

So in conclusion all I can surgest is that if this is really important to you, contact various manufactures of meths and ask them the composition, you might get lucky and find one that supplies it with methanol ranther than naphtha. If you find one let us know.

 

[w00dsmoke]

I've taken lots of advice from you all so here goes!



To: The Review and Appeals Officer




· Your proposed use of IDA has not been approved by the Commissioners of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, under The Denatured Alcohol Regulations 2005.

I would like to appeal against this decision. I would be grateful if you would read and accept why I believe I have a valid and legal reason to use IDA. I would like to state clearly that this use has been approved in the past year and applications have been approved by the Commissioners for the purpose that I have clearly stated.

· Please see Section 17:8 Previously Approved Uses of Denatured Alcohol. For use in small quantities (no greater than 20 litres per annum) in any specialised hobby or pastime where: use of IDA is specified in technical or trade literature; and the quantities received are reasonable having regard to the nature of the pursuit involved

· I know several people who have this stove/heater type of stove who have had their applications approved. Please bear in mind that this is to be used for inside a nylon tent for winter canoe/camping. This is a specialised pursuit/hobby. This was a major factor in me recently deciding to buy the above stove.

· The stove/heater is a ORIGO HEATPAL 5100 yacht/outdoor heater/stove designed to be used in enclosed spaces without the risk of sparks/bad fumes/stains/explosion. The manufacturer has clearly stated within the guidelines that the fuel must be DENATURED ALCOHOL or SOOT FREE. I have enclosed a copy of the manufacturers instructions for your perusal. Nicholas Dyer advised me over the phone on Tuesday 20th Feb that CDA would be ok to use within this stove however, this is against the manufacturers instructions. The smell and soot within an enclosed space let a lone the health impact of the dye/soot would be totally against the instructions for the stove.

If however my appeal fails, I would like a letter from your department who have advised me to use an inappropriate fuel in the above stove to accept responsibility for any health impact/risk from using dyed methylated spirits. I would also like to be reimbursed for the purchase price of the stove/heater as I have based this purchase on being approved to use IDA with it, and this formerly has been approved for use with this stove/heater.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Kind regards



Woodsmoke

 

[Chopper]

Thats the way to do it!!! (said in my best Mr Punch Voice)