How ?? Soldiers die on beacons

[EdS]

very sad but bear in mind it was hot for the UK, but not really that hot.

Part of the problem with special forces - well forces in general - when they do this sort of this, is that while they maybe "hard" and very good soldiers, many (not all) but many have limited experience in outdoor activities, outside of the military institutional set up, so are not aware of the of the problems before its to late. Coupled with the "need" to push harder, where the really skill is hunkering down and dealing with the immediate.

An upbringing of walking long distances / caving/ mountaineering etc even with light loads is better "training" for avoiding this situation ie you know when things are not OK by instinct - than 6 -12 month intensive military training. Not much use for the rest though.


I know some of my caving friends are out on expedition in Picos at the moment - that involves a days walk in with 30kg (not lb) loads to get ropes to entrance, before anything is rigged and the Vietnam trips are 3 days walk in through jungle. No problems with heat exhaustion -- guess a) because they are know how to avoid it b) take action when needed.

I know we are looking at an 18 - 20 hour underground trip in France in a couple of weeks - food and water have to be taken with you as no safe drinking water. But people have been training for this scenario.

Guess it shows an institutional failing in the military training that over looks basic outdoor skills -- similarly with hypothermia, trying to cross swollen rivers etc.. These kill people on training / exercise every year.

Still a shame though

 

[mrcharly]

From the bits I have heard they were meant to be carrying 3ltrs of water, but also carrying water sterilizing tablets to supplement their supply en-route.

3l when doing hard graft all day is, IMO, below survival level. About a litre an hour is what we counted on when bushwalking in Oz (that includes the liquid in food).

 

[EdS]

I took 8l of water for a walk in the lakes this weekend - 2l each for the 2 kids 1l each for the dogs and 2l for me. Plus a bit of stream drinking

 

[Wayland]

I've heard more reports saying that most of the stream beds were just dried up rubble.

Very sad...

 

[rik_uk3]

I've heard more reports saying that most of the stream beds were just dried up rubble.

Very sad...

Yep, about right. I live within view of the Beacons, have a stream/small river at the back of the house and whilst its never run dry its down to maybe 6" of water now; smaller streams which feed it are bone dry. A problem for the Beacons is that while you get heavy rain over the year the run off is high; streams can disappear overnight. Many people who've not hiked there have no real idea just how exposed you are up there.

 

[wingstoo]

An understanding of what "Selection" is about is also very much needed, It certainly isn't a bimble in the park and being able to hunker down when it gets difficult and waiting for the conditions to get easier, this part of selection is a time trial over a set distance, failure to complete within time is a fail of the course, it is usually highly motivated personnel from all three services who request the opportunity to go on selection courses, there is no reward to them not finishing the course. All recruits are volunteers and spend a lot of time preparing for selection. It is a brutal course overall and it takes a certain type of man to undergo it.


It is after all an Endurance test, to gain the place in the elite special forces regiment. No good backing down when it starts to get tough. Maybe that's why only about 1 in 10 succeed.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/defence/article3817097.ece

 

[Arya]

Tragic
But extreme people push themselves beyond the extreme.
Doesn´t it seem a bit "unprepared" that no one did control the access to water in the area before the exercise? Just asking...

In Norway most deaths seems to involve a tank or a BV in any way. Soldiers being runned over by tanks, drowning in them etc.

 

[wingstoo]

They would do the task in pretty much their issued kit, which these days includes a hydration bladder, and probably a 58 pattern water bottle, this would be filled before they moved off, they are squaddies but it doesn't make them too stupid as to not carry what they thought they would need between filling points, just that on this occasion the places normally used by thousands before them had not been checked to be running, it is also a four hour trek/yomp/challenge.

IIRC the last walk I did up Black Mountain I was carrying 6ltrs and the wife had 4ltrs for an overnight and a 12 hour walk.

Would they have been checked, yes they would have been.

 

[Bowlander]

RIP lads, a sad loss.

 

[EdS]

It does highlight a worrying issue in the army's training - a lot of time and resources are spent on training troops some to be amount the best elite in the world. But they don't have the environmental awareness & - I want to say sense but that isn't the right phrase - skill set maybe to be aware that it is hotter than normal and that many of the streams will have dried up. And therefore take proactive action - even if it means bending the rules.



If you want to be the best some one had to teach the poor guys these skills. It is a crying shame that they could ji been the best but tragedy struck when it could of relatively easily been avoided.

I'm want to dis the guys - probably not best written - more highlight issues with army mind set and training (some of my friends are involved in train these guys so see it and they some tines don't).

Also another factor maybe most of the guys come from urban areas,leave school and sign ups, don't do much outdoor stuff before a military career - a generation or two ago a higher proportion would of lived and worked in an outside setting before joining up.

 

[Ronnie]

To be honest, I think it's a bit rich suggesting that these dead men were incompetent. They were obviously running light, going for the win, they took a gamble and lost. Their real failing was that they didn't call for extraction until it was too late - that's a reflection of how much they wanted to win.

You could argue that their was a failing of the selection staff to not check on water sources en-route, but the exercise was in a real world setting with real world variables.

 

[presterjohn]

You can't blame the guys on the ground for this. They don't know if this is a trick to test them or anything. Selection testing can be very sneaky and any sign of weakness can mean failure for them. They pushed themselves to far and paid the ultimate price. The guys in charge knowing what kind of men they were testing should have taken that into consideration and cancelled the test.

 

[wingstoo]

To be honest, I think it's a bit rich suggesting that these dead men were incompetent. They were obviously running light, going for the win, they took a gamble and lost. Their real failing was that they didn't call for extraction until it was too late - that's a reflection of how much they wanted to win.

You could argue that their was a failing of the selection staff to not check on water sources en-route, but the exercise was in a real world setting with real world variables.

Well the guys who go for selection are very different to regular squaddies, otherwise there wouldn't need to be a selection process, the regulars who go for selection tend to be of several years standing in their parent unit and have trained hard to get their physical and mental abilities at a level way above normal squaddies, they are well aware of what is expected of them and they train to that level, it isn't like they wake up one morning and think...Hmmm I think I might have a try for the SAS today...

One of the guys who died was already a Lance Corporal in his parent unit, which was a TA Unit, and quite possibly had a tour under his belt in Afghanistan...

He is believed to have served with the TA for more than five years, including tours of Iraq and Afghanistan.

So no doubt he would know a fair bit about possible heat stroke/exhaustion and dehydration, as well as fighting in hostile areas whilst carrying heavy loads...

A sad loss to his family, his Unit, his pupils and his friends.

An interesting read for those who are interested in hearing how it was for one trooper.

http://www.h2g2.com/entry/A12936765

 

[JonathanD]

Why has this been highlighted so much. There are loads of serving members and individuals on 'selection' within our SF and other services that died on Brecon whilst training. It's not exactly a rare occurrence, it even happens with overseas forces coming over to train alongside our SF. Yes it is tragic and extremely unfortunate, but it's also another example of press sensationalism.

 

[wingstoo]

I guess it is Jonathon, a bit like the numbers killed on active service over the past ten years over in Afghan, the numbers are miniscule really, and only a few are heroes in the true sense of the word, anyone who signed up after we as a country entered into conflict in the region knew exactly what they were signing up for, some of them wanted it... Yes it is sad for the families and friends of those who have died or been seriously injured or mentally damaged for the rest of their lives, but they signed the dotted line knowing exactly what the chances were that it would happen to them, anyone who signed up before 11 September 2001 at least has an excuse that they didn't know we would be going to be in two extended conflicts.

BTW, I do support military charities, I wore the uniform back in the eighties as a regular and again in the 90's as a Volunteer reservist (Training) And many of those in my charge had glowing reports from me as they went into the recruiting office to sign up, and they were asked if it was really what they wanted and if they were aware of what might happen, Thankfully they have come back.

It probably made the news because it happened very publicly, all those who have died privately are often forgotten by most...I once read a few words that said a lot to me...

If I die in war you remember me, but if I live in peace you don't...

 

[mrcharly]

It is worth highlighting by the press for one reason; it will make people be more careful about hot weather, heat exhaustion and dehydration.

People will read about this and think "If those fit young blokes can die from the heat, I'd better be careful."

Many people in the UK are blase about the heat and sun. Even experienced walkers who'd carry all the right gear for a winter walk.

If the publicity leads a few more people to being careful, carrying enough water and calling for help if they come unstuck, then some good has come from this tragedy.

 

[EdS]

wingstoo... good read. Strangely enough I know one of the guess he mentions --- taught be a lot about driving a Land Rover off road

 

[carabao]

I have been reading this post, and just feel I have to say my bit. The title How ?? Means its a shock or a travesty, it's not, soldiers do die and get seriously injured on excercise, it's the nature of the job. I served in an infantry battalion for 8 years and have been several excercises were there has been soldiers deaths. For example, Norway 1994 my first season, 6 Norwegian soldiers got lost/separated froze to death, action carry on. Brecon on the Fan dance Nco cadre Rifleman drop dead heart attack, action carry on. Sennybridge live firing SA80 cook off (due to heat of weapon, causes weapon to fire) 3 rounds in my muckers ankle, calf, knee, action carry on, he is on a false leg.
Wingstoo, sorry but the comment "they do what they were getting in too" is not right and not fair on the boys. The boys are mostly (through my experience and those i served with) escaping a crap existence, being raised in run down council estates, single mothers, surrounded by years of neglect and drug dealers and addicts. The Army is an only choice to get out of it, as it has been from the Romans till today. A report out today reports that most of new recruits joining the army has the reading ability of an 11 year and a 7 year old at maths. That's a shame. We knew what we were and are getting into and would do it again and again.

 

[hog]

Hot temperature + overexertion = heat exhaustion/ heat stroke and possibly death, sadly in this case true.
MOD instructors should have known better.

 

[wingstoo]

Wingstoo, sorry but the comment "they do what they were getting in too" is not right and not fair on the boys.

Sorry, but we have been in conflict for ten years in Afghanistan, sadly the body bags have been coming home and those who have seen it happen didn't know when they signed up for the military that they would most likely go into combat?

So how can it be "not right" and "Not fair", did they really think that signing up during a conflict would exclude them from the fight...Or did they know what they were getting themselves into?

It might be different in the Army, but I know that those joining the RAF Regiment in particular (Who are also in ground combat roles in Afghanistan) the entry path is not open to those who have only limited abilities in English and Maths.

Personally I don't think it is myself doing them the disservice here.

MOD instructors should have known better.

All the directing staff know their job inside out, they have all been there, done that...The candidates have to check in at certain points en-route where they can report any problems.