When we make primitive "things", should we always use primitive tools to make those primitive things? For instance, should we use bone needles to sew something up that is primitive? Should we cut a tree with a stone axe and peel the bark with a chip of flint? Does making a primitive object with modern tools lessen it's "primitiveness"? In other words, are we "cheating" using up to date tools to make primitive objects?
How Primitive.......?
- Thread starter directdrive
- Start date
I dont think cheating is quite the right word and it all depends on what you are trying to achieve
If you are just (let me use this word tentatively) playing then there is no problem using modern tools but what you have made won't be authentic as a primitive tool it may look the same and work the same but I dont think you could / should call it primitive. I don't see anything wrong with this approach as you will learn how the objects shapes work with tools you are familiar with and then you can test how the object works in both cases your knowledge and experience will have grown and you may have saved your self quite a lot of time using power tools etc. all this experience can then be taken and used to help make the object using primitive methods
If what you are trying to do is make a replica of an artefact to understand how it was made and used you are defeating your self before you even get started using modern tools.
I play a lot as I don't have enough time to do things the primitive way if I did I would certainly not use modern equipment
Hope this helps just my opinion
James
There is a good article on this subject in the first primitive skills book from the society of primitive technology I think its about the three levels of experimental archaeology.
If you are just (let me use this word tentatively) playing then there is no problem using modern tools but what you have made won't be authentic as a primitive tool it may look the same and work the same but I dont think you could / should call it primitive. I don't see anything wrong with this approach as you will learn how the objects shapes work with tools you are familiar with and then you can test how the object works in both cases your knowledge and experience will have grown and you may have saved your self quite a lot of time using power tools etc. all this experience can then be taken and used to help make the object using primitive methods
If what you are trying to do is make a replica of an artefact to understand how it was made and used you are defeating your self before you even get started using modern tools.
I play a lot as I don't have enough time to do things the primitive way if I did I would certainly not use modern equipment
Hope this helps just my opinion
James
There is a good article on this subject in the first primitive skills book from the society of primitive technology I think its about the three levels of experimental archaeology.
directdrive said:
No. It's only cheating if you think it's cheating and I can't control what you think and you can't control what I think. But there are no real, live, bushcraft police. If people want to stand in judgement of others for whatever possible reason, I see it as their problem, not mine. Bushcraft is what you make of it.
I think it's a case of starting off with what ever you either are used to or have to hand.
For example lets say you want to make a antler needle (I'll use this example as PatrickM has done a great tutorial on it).
You need to 1st split the antler. This can be done with either a modern saw or with a knife etc or you could use a flint knife and do it as per the tutorial. Do you know how to knap a knife? Maybe not yet. You also need to make the hole in the end of the needle. You can use a dremel or whatever is at hand or you can use a flint drill. For this you need a suitably shaped piece of flint for the bit, understand how to make cordage and natural glue to fix the flint head to the shaft etc etc etc.
Simple answer, for me at least, is that these are skills that develop over time with each project that I do.
Start with what you have and take it from there.
Moduser
For example lets say you want to make a antler needle (I'll use this example as PatrickM has done a great tutorial on it).
You need to 1st split the antler. This can be done with either a modern saw or with a knife etc or you could use a flint knife and do it as per the tutorial. Do you know how to knap a knife? Maybe not yet. You also need to make the hole in the end of the needle. You can use a dremel or whatever is at hand or you can use a flint drill. For this you need a suitably shaped piece of flint for the bit, understand how to make cordage and natural glue to fix the flint head to the shaft etc etc etc.
Simple answer, for me at least, is that these are skills that develop over time with each project that I do.
Start with what you have and take it from there.
Moduser
wolf
Settler
i think it depends on the person,the item you are making,why you are making it,ie a gift ect.man adapts to situations.if a caveman had matches would he use a bow drill?
i think if you set yourself a project to do using only primative tools then thats a decision used by you,i feel when we do such projects we tap back into our roots and at the end of it have a sense of achievement.ironic really a cave man would ask us why are we having such a hard time flint knapping ect....
i think if you set yourself a project to do using only primative tools then thats a decision used by you,i feel when we do such projects we tap back into our roots and at the end of it have a sense of achievement.ironic really a cave man would ask us why are we having such a hard time flint knapping ect....
andyn
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Yup definatley cheating and you wil be shunned and teased for life! 
Like others have says, it depends what you want to achieve. If you want to mimic the end product then i dont see why modern tools shouldnt be used....
But if you want to copy the process as well....then you should think about using similar tools as they would have done.
Your call really.
Everything was modern age once. I'm sure no one complained when they found out how to forge metal instead of using flint tools.
Like others have says, it depends what you want to achieve. If you want to mimic the end product then i dont see why modern tools shouldnt be used....
But if you want to copy the process as well....then you should think about using similar tools as they would have done.
Your call really.
Everything was modern age once. I'm sure no one complained when they found out how to forge metal instead of using flint tools.
Eric_Methven
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I think Eric has hit the nail on the head. The use of whatever tools, techniques and materials you have at your disposal is both natural and sensible. If you make a "bushcrafty" item with power tools it is no less worthy as an item. To tell others that you managed to make your noggin with a flint would really only be cheating yourself if you had in fact done it with the Black and Decker and a palm sander. Is a coracle less of a coracle because we used a steel tool to make it? I think not.
Ultimately, mans greatest abilities as a species are to use tools and to communicate. With these skills comes adaptability. Adapting to use the best tools available for a task is all part of who we are. Give Neanderthal man a nice knife of 01 steel and he would not have picked up another flint for the rest of his life other than to hurl at his neighbour who wanted to steal the knife from him!
Ultimately, mans greatest abilities as a species are to use tools and to communicate. With these skills comes adaptability. Adapting to use the best tools available for a task is all part of who we are. Give Neanderthal man a nice knife of 01 steel and he would not have picked up another flint for the rest of his life other than to hurl at his neighbour who wanted to steal the knife from him!
I'm with the rest of the guys,it's totally up to you how you do anything.Whatever method you chose is as valid as any other.
There is no "must do" code in bushcraft,apart from respecting the environment and your fellow man.
RM's books and programs are only suggestions as to how things can be done
There is no "must do" code in bushcraft,apart from respecting the environment and your fellow man.
RM's books and programs are only suggestions as to how things can be done
Hi,
I'm with Eric on this, if you like using new tools, don't make out you used primitive ones, I did some knapping on a course recently, I used a piece of broom handle with a nail in one end of it instead of a piece of antler. I'll continue to use this until I get better and can get hold of some antler to practice with. As long as you enjoy it and learn does it really matter that much?
Brian
I'm with Eric on this, if you like using new tools, don't make out you used primitive ones, I did some knapping on a course recently, I used a piece of broom handle with a nail in one end of it instead of a piece of antler. I'll continue to use this until I get better and can get hold of some antler to practice with. As long as you enjoy it and learn does it really matter that much?
Brian
I've often thought how great it would be to spend a week in the wilderness, taking camping kit, and then over the course of the week, converting to primitive living. By the end of the week I might be lucky enough to have converted completely. I'd then be a real living caveman... have i cheated, having used gear in the past?
My answer is no - I've just bought time for my transition. If this was twenty thousand years ago, I'd have been doing it for life, so it would in fact be easier. So I'd say my transition would in fact be very impressive - not cheating at all!
My answer is no - I've just bought time for my transition. If this was twenty thousand years ago, I'd have been doing it for life, so it would in fact be easier. So I'd say my transition would in fact be very impressive - not cheating at all!
I reckon primitive toolkits were passed along just the way toolkits are these days. It takes a while to make up the tools that you need to even make the tools that you need to make any finished article.
Last night I sat gluing flint flakes into old POC arrow shafts, playing with thicknesses for drill bits. Nothing primitive about it except for the tips but it was still worthwhile.
I've got antler knapping tools cut with hacksaws, square edges on stone adze handles , all sorts of in-betweens but they're all practice pieces really. By making them up with modern tools you find out the tools that you need then go back a stage, make up the new tools then start over on the main piece again.
Wouldn't be like that in a real primitive society. You'd start from an earlier age and have tuition, apprenticeships and the likes.
Fun trying though, each step back is a step forward .
Last night I sat gluing flint flakes into old POC arrow shafts, playing with thicknesses for drill bits. Nothing primitive about it except for the tips but it was still worthwhile.
I've got antler knapping tools cut with hacksaws, square edges on stone adze handles
, all sorts of in-betweens but they're all practice pieces really. By making them up with modern tools you find out the tools that you need then go back a stage, make up the new tools then start over on the main piece again.Wouldn't be like that in a real primitive society. You'd start from an earlier age and have tuition, apprenticeships and the likes.
Fun trying though, each step back is a step forward
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