Homebrewers / Winemakers - a few questions about elderberry wine.

[BigShot]

In that case I've got no idea what he was on about.
Still sounds pretty awful to me - I'm all for a hoppy ale when the time's right but something about doubling up doesn't sound right to me.

Think I'll join you in the smile and nod way.

 

[rich59]

Rich - thanks for the detailed reply. I'll almost certainly give that method a go... though whether it will be this time or next year I can't say!

Back to the marbles... are you saying that when you rack the wine (losing a bit of liquid in the process) you put marbles like this into the demijohn?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marble_(toy)

There's not much to this question so here it is in all it's blunt glory...

Why?

Glass marbles like kids used to play with. The reason is that they are just glass. They are not water that dilutes the alcohol content risking restarting the fermentation if there is a bit of sugar about. They are not sugar that might give a little boost to the yeast and start the fermentation again. They are not fruit juice that risks both of the above. They replace lost volume with the racking off the gunge at the bottom so keeping the amount of air at the top to a minimum. Before you racked it was almost pure carbon dioxide. With racking you end up with some air at the top of the demijohn that will contribute to spoiling the finished wine.

 

[BigShot]

All so clear now!
That makes perfect sense.

Cheers.

I guess I'll have to buy some marbles... for some reason I don't think I'd feel right raiding the bag of marbles I've had since I was a nipper.

 

[WhichDoctor]

Very interesting thread.

I would just like to add that my Mum makes the most amazing elderberry and runner-bean wine. If i remember rightly the beans help neutralize some of the tannins in the elderberry or something. Anyway it makes a very smooth rounded wine, eminently drinkable

 

[BigShot]

I'll be sure to grow some extra runner beans on my allotment this year so I can try that. It'll be interesting to see how it compares to straight elderberry.

 

[BigShot]

Well it's all go now.
Last night I crushed the berries and grapes as best I could, poured on 4.5 litres of boiling water, gave it a good stir, mixed in the sugar well and left it to cool overnight. About an hour or so ago I checked and the temperature was at 21°C so I added the citric acid (as per the recipe, I'm not deviating from that this first time - I'll mess about when I feel a bit more confident) and took a hydrometer reading. The trial was at 20°C when I took the reading, as the hydrometer's instructions stated.

I'm a tad confused.

I've used a Stevenson Reeves hydrometer (the S1011 Triple Scale jobbie) http://www.stevenson-reeves.co.uk/hydrometers/HBWB.htm

According to the Hydrometer
1.084 specific gravity
roughly 225g suger per litre
13.5% potential ABV

According to the Specific Gravity table in the book I'm using
1.080 specific gravity
is 205g sugar per litre
10.6% potential ABV
and
1.085 specific gravity
is 222g sugar per litre
11.3% potential ABV


For reference, the recipe calls for 1.5kg elderberries, 225g raisins, 4.5l water, 1.1kg sugar, 2tsp citric acid, 1 tsp yeast nutrient and a sachet of yeast.
I'm using Gervin Wine Yeast No2, if that makes a difference.


Any input?
I'm also toying with not using campden tablets in the must... Good idea? Bad idea?

 

[BigShot]

Oh hang on... I think something just half clicked...

When I was talking to someone local about brewing I mentioned a hydrometer and a thermometer in the same breath and was told, in no uncertain terms, that temperature had absolutely no bearing when using a hydrometer.

I was certain they were wrong, but being inexperienced in matters of brewing I couldn't articulate it too well without sounding like the annoying sort of know-it-all who still needs to ask for advice.
I looked it up (still sure I was right) and saw, as one would expect, that temperature AND atmospheric pressure are relevant factors in relative density!
It's nice to be proven right when you were made to feel like a bit of a dolt.

...The hydrometer chart in the book is assuming a reading taken at 15.5°C and having looked it up when I got home I now know temperature is relevant.

Quite how that would make the scales disagree isn't clear to me though. Surely each should be calibrated to the temperature it's meant to be read at and should give the same results.

Anyone?

 

[gregorach]

A properly calibrated Excise grade hydrometer costs about 80 quid...

The difference between the expected alcohol percentage between your two sources is probably down to assuming different final gravities. My advise would be to not worry about it too much - you're in the right ballpark.

 

[BigShot]

Yea, I can't say I thought I was buying weapons-grade accuracy for £2.59.
I hadn't thought about how much a properly calibrated one would cost though.

The one I've got actually had a blue shaded area with "Start Wine" written on it. In fact, for a beginner it seems really useful. It makes the ballparks quite explicit. I'm definitely at the upper end of that area.
(It also has similar areas shaded for starting beer and for bottling both beer and wine - the latter of which is split for sewwt and dry wines too... most of it unnecessary I'm sure but it does help when you've never done it before)
The confusion was whether I should be expecting 10.6% (quite normal for a wine) or 13.5% - though thinking about it the elderberry wine I bought from DemiJohn in Edinburgh was about 14.5% so I don't suppose it matters to have something so strong.

You know, I really am enjoying this. It's like so many of the things I enjoy rolled into one. The fun of chemistry lessons and cooking, drink, outdoorsy stuff and the whole DIY thing I like so much.

I can't WAIT to get started on these sloes... in fact, I'm half tempted to go and buy another fermentation bucket just so I can get the next lot going a bit quicker!


EDIT
I just checked and the Hydrometer and book both suggest bottling between 1.000 and 1.010 - I'm not sure if that's what you were referring to with final gravities, though I suspect so.
I've just realised (again) that it's going to be AGES before I get to drink this stuff! It's not fair! Haha.

 

[BigShot]

Wow!
Second full day of fermenting (so the second daily stir since adding the yeast) and the must is really fizzing away when I disturb it. Apparently the yeast is fermenting for all it is worth!

What a smell though!
I can't describe it (though it doesn't smell like rotten fruit or wine that's turned to vinegar - thought either of them could be a possibility I suppose) other than it's strong and reminds me somewhat of a cross between a brewery (without the hops smell, obviously) and a pub's slops bucket.
Is that normal?

 

[rich59]

Whilst I can't solve your contradictions on different charts entirely I would encourage you to perhaps get 2-3 more charts/ scales and see if there is an error somewhere. I would have thought that:-

According to the Hydrometer
1.084 specific gravity
roughly 225g suger per litre
13.5% potential ABV

sounds very fishy as charts I refer to put 1.080 as round about 10%.

The point of the campden tablets/ sulphite was at the very start of the ferment when there is oxygen present in the unfermented stuff. If you put some in at the start it is useful then. It only becomes useful again at the end when oxygen may have a chance of causing you problems again. If you had put some in early it would then blow off with all the bubbling and you would need to consider putting some more in at the end.

Ah! the smells. I remember a 5 gallon batch of peach! - Banished for about 2 years due to the bad smells. Came across it later and it was delicious.

If you want to be drinking it quickly then you need to be fermenting it at about 25 degrees C. I had some test batches ferment out in a week and be pretty clear by 2 weeks this summer.

 

[BigShot]

So... the smell is normal then? (Well, I know you can't smell it, but it's normal for a bit of a honk while it's fizzing away in the bucket is it?)

I wonder, there's still a few days left to go in the bucket, would it be worth putting campden in now or not bother? Maybe I'm just losing my nerve about doing it non-chemically!

It's my intention to leave this going for quite a while and then bottle and leave it for at least a few months. The recipe suggests leaving it for 18 months before drinking. From what I've heard it'll be a much nicer wine that way. I'm a bit impatient to try some but I'm willing to wait a while if it means a nicer wine.


On the hydrometer front, the scale I quoted from that bit is on the hydrometer itself. Maybe it isn't to be trusted if it's as far off the mark as it seems from what you've said. That said, anything between 10ish (normal for most shop bought wines I think) and about 15 (same as the Elderberry wine I got recently) I'll be happy enough.

I'll probably take a reading of normal water at standard temp and pressure and see if it reads somewhere close to 1.000... at least then I'll know if the density scale on the hydrometer is to be trusted at all. The rest doesn't really matter so much once I know the answer to that, I suppose.



I'm sort of planning to take a trial when it's stopped fermenting entirely and then add a bit more sugar and keep doing so until it won't start up again meaning dead yeast, then sweeten it to somewhere around medium (or slightly sweeter if the girlfriend gets her way) - is that a good idea or not?

 

[gregorach]

I definitely wouldn't be putting a camden tab in now.

There's basically two ways to produce a sweeter wine - either keep adding sugar until it stops fermenting, or "cut" it by using a camden tablet and some fermentation stopper (potassium sorbate) when it reaches your desired gravity. Or I suppose you could combine the two, by letting it ferment right out, then adding the camden / pot. sorbate, and then adding more sugar.

Don't worry about differences in the estimated alcohol content from different tables - the alcohol content depends on difference between starting and finishing gravity, so you can't estimate it accurately from only the starting gravity. I suspect that one source is giving the alcohol content if the finishing gravity is 1.0, and another is based on it finishing at about 0.99, which equates to a difference of about 2%. 13.5% seems a too high either way...

 

[BigShot]

Right...
...you know, it is ratehr a lot of fun to feel so hopelessly lost with something. It's that sure feeling you get when doing something completely and utterly new without a single concept you've used before... (well, I've used yeast in bread, but that's stretching things a bit) ...not a feeling I have enough, must do more things for the first time!

The book I quoted abv predictions from actually details how to calculate it from start and end gravities so shouldn't have a problem there. Just to confirm though, it is:
ABV = ((ρ1 x 1000) - (ρ2 x 1000)) / 7.35

I don't know if there's more than one way of calculating it - but that's the one I have.

 

[gregorach]

That's it, but I've encountered various values for the constant, from 7.35 to 7.46... I split the difference and use 7.4.

 

[BigShot]

Haha - I might have known there'd be some sort of uncertainty about it!
Any idea which one is the official constant used for the booze that goes to retail?

 

[gregorach]

Not off the top of my head. I suspect that the proper calculation may be somewhat more complex...

 

[rich59]

When I make wines I try to keep a detailed diary of what I did and what I measured/ noticed. That way I can learn from my experience and perhaps do it better another time.

If you wanted to do a simple hydrometer test you might make up a sugar solution with water and see if the reading is as expected.

I don't bother to attempt to get the stronger wines. 11% is plenty enough for me and I don't even like commercial 14% wines these days - they taste too powerful on the throat and unbalance the taste. If you aim for the higher amounts then you might get a continuing slow ferment when you want to be racking it off the lees. I don't like the risk of getting a sweet wine either as I don't particularly like them either.

If it goes to full dryness by the way then the gravity will be about 0.992 which used to surprise me!

 

[BigShot]

I'm keeping a detailed record of what happens including the smells I notice, fizzing and so on. I've even written the met office's predicted air pressure for the area with the hydrometer reading just in case! I don't expect I'll be needing it, but it's there if I do.

I was going to aim for around 11% but have no idea how to plan things to get there. I've just done a bit of searching and have found that Gervin No-2 is "Montrachet strain, Davis 522" which can tolerate up to 15%.

Personally I tend not to go for anything too sweet either - but since my girlfriend has asked I'll probably make something a bit sweeter than I'd intended to.

So, if I was going to stop somewhere around 11%, how is best to stop it so I can get the right level of sweetness without the fermentation starting again? I don't suppose there's any way if not using campden is there?

I'm starting to realise just how far out of my depth I am now... and I'm still loving it! Haha.

 

[BigShot]

I've just found a rather technical website, most of which I don't understand, but it seems to explain the difference in predicted alcohol based on the hydrometer reading...

It could be that the book made a correction of some sort for non-sugar solids suspended in the liquid and the hydrometer didn't. Of course, any such correction would be inaccurate as the amount of such solids would vary from fruit to fruit, but it could explain things.