In the woods near me there are quite a few streight hazel wands about 3 1/2 in in diameter and 7ft long, will they make a passable bow, also what about alder?
Hazel for bow making
- Thread starter elma
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elma said:
Unfortunately Hazel is too springy - will make a fun childs bow perhaps but not a serious bow. If you bend a hazel rod it tends to stay somewhat bent.
Not sure aboout alder but again i would think it too springy.
You need a wood that is both springy yet stiff. That will bend and return to straight.
Ash, elm and the king of bow woods, Yew, are all good candidates.
Bardster said:
I agree, Bardster
Hazel makes a quick and fun bow for kids. As a serious tool it falls short because of it's tendency to remain curved once drawn a few times.
Alder is much the same.
If you stay away from the King of Bow woods (Yew), Ash is your best bet...
This's so depressing. 
I've had my eye on a Hazel trunk in a derelict coppice for nigh on a couple of years. It's about 5.5" by 4" in a flat-sided oval section. If split right it would give two staves with perfectly flat backs without the work of bringing down a large diameter tree. I've had my hopes pinned on it for a stone worked bow since the notion first occurred.
I can see the problem, the same willingness to assume a new shape which makes hazel so useful for arrows would be a problem using it for bows.
If a tendancy to take set is the main problem couldn't it be countered to an extent by a few layers of sinew? Maybe pull it into an inch of reflex while applying it, not using it so much for performance increase but just to drag the bow straight again when unstrung?
I don't know how hazel deals with compression - whether it would be overpowered by the sinew(ok for arrows and walking sticks seems a good start) - but it's got to be worth a shot surely?
(...he asks, in a slightly desperate voice)
I've had my eye on a Hazel trunk in a derelict coppice for nigh on a couple of years. It's about 5.5" by 4" in a flat-sided oval section. If split right it would give two staves with perfectly flat backs without the work of bringing down a large diameter tree. I've had my hopes pinned on it for a stone worked bow since the notion first occurred.
I can see the problem, the same willingness to assume a new shape which makes hazel so useful for arrows would be a problem using it for bows.
If a tendancy to take set is the main problem couldn't it be countered to an extent by a few layers of sinew? Maybe pull it into an inch of reflex while applying it, not using it so much for performance increase but just to drag the bow straight again when unstrung?
I don't know how hazel deals with compression - whether it would be overpowered by the sinew(ok for arrows and walking sticks seems a good start) - but it's got to be worth a shot surely?
(...he asks, in a slightly desperate voice)
There is no harm in experimenting, but I think you will find that the bows performance will drop off very quickly, and you just wont have the tension required for any type of performance.
Sinew would certainly help fight set. If you were making it a longish bow then I would go for a couple of inches.Grooveski said:This's so depressing.
I've had my eye on a Hazel trunk in a derelict coppice for nigh on a couple of years. It's about 5.5" by 4" in a flat-sided oval section. If split right it would give two staves with perfectly flat backs without the work of bringing down a large diameter tree. I've had my hopes pinned on it for a stone worked bow since the notion first occurred.
I can see the problem, the same willingness to assume a new shape which makes hazel so useful for arrows would be a problem using it for bows.
If a tendancy to take set is the main problem couldn't it be countered to an extent by a few layers of sinew? Maybe pull it into an inch of reflex while applying it, not using it so much for performance increase but just to drag the bow straight again when unstrung?
I don't know how hazel deals with compression - whether it would be overpowered by the sinew(ok for arrows and walking sticks seems a good start) - but it's got to be worth a shot surely?
(...he asks, in a slightly desperate voice)
Also if the staves are as you describe you could make a wide limbed bow which will reduce the strain on the limbs. Personally I'd go for a pyramid self bow and a PNW sinewed short bow
.
I started to have a go with some hazel a while ago. It was most unsatisfactory. I was not put off by what people said about its properties, I was planning to aime for 30-35lb and leave it a couple of inches wide. That should give enough surface to spread the compression, which is what causes limb set. So went the theory anyway.
Sadly I didn't get that far. I split the 3" diameter trunk, it was straight for the needed 6 foot, but the split travelled in a complete spiral, I think it did more than a 180! I had thought that I would use the split face as the bow's back, but with that much twist I have no idea where I would even have had to start!
I have since spoken to people who split a lot of hazel and they say that it always grows that way
Sadly I didn't get that far. I split the 3" diameter trunk, it was straight for the needed 6 foot, but the split travelled in a complete spiral, I think it did more than a 180! I had thought that I would use the split face as the bow's back, but with that much twist I have no idea where I would even have had to start!
I have since spoken to people who split a lot of hazel and they say that it always grows that way
Just gets better and better.....
Much as I need the practice and am desperate for wood I think I'll skip it for now. It's a drag, I've developed quite a rapport with that wee tree, giving it friendly pats and little adoring comments in passing.
More propellor twists I can do without. I made up a steam tube and straightened(ish) two of the four ash staves from the log I cut last winter(one of which by chance is starting to take on a PNW shortie kind of look Snufkin ) but they'll always be wonky and the heavy steaming noticably reduced the strength of the wood.
A pal suggested making them all up anyway for the tillering practice, another pal suggested making a propellor
. Personaly I reckon I should have logged the lot and gone out and cut another tree down.
Found a lovely birch on friday but the only way of getting it out in the canoe would be to split and rough out the staves on-site and I didn't have the tools or the time.
Have far handier access to lots of ash but they're in the same stand as the twister and I'd be sick if I brought down another and it was the same.
There's a juniper at the farm that's going to be quaking in it's roots at the attention it'll be getting soon. It's a nice tree though, I don't really want to fell it.
Crikey, how hard can it be to find a straight bit of wood?
Much as I need the practice and am desperate for wood I think I'll skip it for now. It's a drag, I've developed quite a rapport with that wee tree, giving it friendly pats and little adoring comments in passing.
More propellor twists I can do without. I made up a steam tube and straightened(ish) two of the four ash staves from the log I cut last winter(one of which by chance is starting to take on a PNW shortie kind of look Snufkin
) but they'll always be wonky and the heavy steaming noticably reduced the strength of the wood. A pal suggested making them all up anyway for the tillering practice, another pal suggested making a propellor
. Personaly I reckon I should have logged the lot and gone out and cut another tree down.Found a lovely birch on friday but the only way of getting it out in the canoe would be to split and rough out the staves on-site and I didn't have the tools or the time.
Have far handier access to lots of ash but they're in the same stand as the twister and I'd be sick if I brought down another and it was the same.
There's a juniper at the farm that's going to be quaking in it's roots at the attention it'll be getting soon. It's a nice tree though, I don't really want to fell it.
Crikey, how hard can it be to find a straight bit of wood?
If you check out paleoplanet, I think theres a post about a bow made from hazel in the archery section, If I recall correctly, the belly of the bow had been heat treated improving its compressive strength. It was also a flatbow design, not sure if its the same species as our native hazel here in Scotland
Heres a link to the post
http://p081.ezboard.com/fpaleoplanet69529frm13.showMessage?topicID=2070.topic
Heres a link to the post
http://p081.ezboard.com/fpaleoplanet69529frm13.showMessage?topicID=2070.topic
Grooveski said:
dead easy - just go down to your local wood yard and sort through their ash planks....
I live 5 mins from a very large travis perkins. masses of ash planks - and enough for 6 or 8 bows for less than a tenner.
Being in Scotland you have access to a bow wood i want to try desperately. Wych Elm - only gromws in the north and makes wonderful bows... only stuff i can get round here is english elm which is not quite as good..
The trouble is Bardster, that's me ready to have a shot at making one with flint. I left this tree standing so it could be roughed out green and have been thinking that a stave was sorted(for more than a year, without checking if it's even a suitable wood, pretty droll ).
Wych Elm I've come across. I don't think it's very common round the central belt and can't recall seeing any in a while but there were a few over on Arran where I grew up.
I wasn't really looking for it before though, will be keeping my eyes peeled now(well, when the seeds are out).
Cheers Robbo, I'd missed that. It's the same species
. Nothing like I had in mind but the log should be long enough for something along those lines.
Oh, I don't know.... Sounds like hitting weight is unlikely but beggers can't be choosers. The juniper's awfully narrow and would be more of a tillered stick affair.
Smeg it, the hazel's too big for the coppice anyway. I'll have it down and see how it splits.
).Wych Elm I've come across. I don't think it's very common round the central belt and can't recall seeing any in a while but there were a few over on Arran where I grew up.
I wasn't really looking for it before though, will be keeping my eyes peeled now(well, when the seeds are out).
Cheers Robbo, I'd missed that. It's the same species
. Nothing like I had in mind but the log should be long enough for something along those lines.Oh, I don't know.... Sounds like hitting weight is unlikely but beggers can't be choosers. The juniper's awfully narrow and would be more of a tillered stick affair.
Smeg it, the hazel's too big for the coppice anyway. I'll have it down and see how it splits.
Grooveski said:This's so depressing.
I've had my eye on a Hazel trunk in a derelict coppice for nigh on a couple of years. It's about 5.5" by 4" in a flat-sided oval section
What you have there Grooveski is what is called 'sun shoots'. I would dare say that you are seeing is gun barrel straight rods, sun shoots grow from overstood hazel and it is basically natures way of telling you that the stool is tired and needs re coppicing as these rods are growing straight for the sun through the canopy of the hazel and this is why they are so straight.
The problem is that sun shoots grow so quick that they do not get the chance lay down any heartwood so they are full of sapwood which by its very nature is inherently weak!
Cheers
Jack.
C_Claycomb said:ISadly I didn't get that far. I split the 3" diameter trunk, it was straight for the needed 6 foot, but the split travelled in a complete spiral, I think it did more than a 180! I had thought that I would use the split face as the bow's back, but with that much twist I have no idea where I would even have had to start!
I have since spoken to people who split a lot of hazel and they say that it always grows that way
Chris.
What you are seeing here is a genetic defect in the plant. As the plant grows and the cells sit just of each other as opposed to being perfectly aligned, on top of each other. Then the next cell grows and does exactly the same thing, a good analogy is the construction of spiral staircases, the steps are off set from each other. This happens to the plant every time the cells grow and will carry on right up through the rod, no matter how tall it is and every rod on that plant will do the same.
So when you are in the woodlands you make a note of that stool and you use the crop from it for some other purpose where it doesn't need to be opened up.
Cheers.
Jack.
Perfect! :yelrotflm
Not sure if I described it too well. There are a lot of shoots but the trunk is a right odd one. It's about the largest in the coppice and looks to have been around for longer than the shoots surrounding it(although prior to the last clearing it may well have been heavily shaded).
The odd thing is it's section which is a bit like:
(shown with a very hypothetical split line and area of use)
It runs up to about 10' in that shape then gradualy eases back to a round section up where the branches start. Total height about 30' or a touch more(it's quite a big chappie).
A stool? The term for the individual clumps in a coppice?
(funky, todays new word
)OK, it's sunk in. Forced growth doesn't have time to lay down heartwood! Coppiced hazel is all pretty much all forced since the shoots are competing against each other....
...so does that mean in general that coppiced wood will always be lacking in heartwood content compared to a single tree?
Looking at a 2" trunk/shoot section that I cut last year, it shows rapid growth for six years, then another five of variable growth then about fifteen nice dark(well, for hazel), tight rings covering the outer third of the radius. Ratio looks ok in the area that's going to be stressed.
The one I'm thinking of bringing down is dominant in it's stool so presumably would be similar or better.
It may work yet.
...so does that mean in general that coppiced wood will always be lacking in heartwood content compared to a single tree?
Looking at a 2" trunk/shoot section that I cut last year, it shows rapid growth for six years, then another five of variable growth then about fifteen nice dark(well, for hazel), tight rings covering the outer third of the radius. Ratio looks ok in the area that's going to be stressed.
The one I'm thinking of bringing down is dominant in it's stool so presumably would be similar or better.
It may work yet.
Grooveski said:
No not really it is dependent on its age. A rod from a coppice stool can be hundreds of years old so just because we use the time coppice has no reflection on its age. old or wrong. Coppice, is really a managment technique but historically hazel coppice is cut on a 7-8 year rotation so it really doesn't get time to lay down any heart wood.
So if you take into consideration that coppice hazel is very young so by association is very weak then take into consideration that sun shoots will grow twice as quick from an overstood stool then you can see how weak it really is.
Cheers.
Jack.
Jack, Thanks for all the info. I use the wood from this derelict for just about everything I make so it's good to know a bit more about the material.
Got me thinking about something else. It's not bows but it's not far off topic......
During the summer I made up a couple of arrows from shoots(sun shoots - dead straight, totaly shaded). One flew like a dog since it wasn't spined high enough while the other was alright for the few shots that it gave before it broke(my fault, daft shot).
Both were of similar dimensions and I'd wondered why they were so varied.
In hindsight the one which flew well was from a much thicker shoot but cut higher up than the other, which came from a wee shoot close to the ground.
Last night I lifted another shaft that's drying just now and chopped it into 6" lengths. The higher up the shoot you go, the better the heartwood ratio. Down near the ground it's all sapwood in wider rings for most of the section, which goes a long way to explaining the lower spine.
Anyhow, sorry to ramble on. Thanks again.
Josh
Got me thinking about something else. It's not bows but it's not far off topic......
During the summer I made up a couple of arrows from shoots(sun shoots - dead straight, totaly shaded). One flew like a dog since it wasn't spined high enough while the other was alright for the few shots that it gave before it broke(my fault, daft shot).
Both were of similar dimensions and I'd wondered why they were so varied.
In hindsight the one which flew well was from a much thicker shoot but cut higher up than the other, which came from a wee shoot close to the ground.Last night I lifted another shaft that's drying just now and chopped it into 6" lengths. The higher up the shoot you go, the better the heartwood ratio. Down near the ground it's all sapwood in wider rings for most of the section, which goes a long way to explaining the lower spine.
Anyhow, sorry to ramble on. Thanks again.
Josh
The Fundamentals is a great book .
They have a copy over on the Stav Academy Library as well, which I guess is worth a mention in this sort of company because there's allsorts in there.
Some good advice in Hunting with the bow and arrow too, although I feel totaly irresponsable in recommending it to you.
You don't live near a zoo do you?
.They have a copy over on the Stav Academy Library as well, which I guess is worth a mention in this sort of company because there's allsorts in there.
Some good advice in Hunting with the bow and arrow too, although I feel totaly irresponsable in recommending it to you.
You don't live near a zoo do you?
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